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Fix for improved ivisibilities is bugged


Ardanis

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We all know that imp invis should provide additional bonuses to saves and AC. Original BG lacks that and we know that's a bug. However, Fixpack doesn't eliminate entirely a problem with imp invis. It just replace an old bug with a new one. See, in order to prevent stacking those bonuses spell was changed to non-cumulative via protection from itself. Not from bonuses, but from the entire spell, including invisibility state. In other words there is no way to conceal yourself again until spell duration ends.

 

Instead of adding a bunch of effects (save bonuses and protection from other invis spells) I recommend to make a new spell, put all of those bonuses into it and add to invisibilities only two extra effects - applying that new spell and protection against it.

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It actually requires several new spells (the durations are not the same). While I've done this locally, I'm thinking of cutting it - you're still under the effects of Improved Invisibility while shimmering, so casting it again for just the invisibility may be verboten stacking.

 

The spells Invisibility, Sanctuary, potions, et alis ought to do what you want for the nonce.

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Usually the stacking isn't an issue because whatever breaks the spell originally (i.e. dispel magic) also breaks the stacking protections. Since invisibility can be broken voluntarily, the scheme can fall down--this is something we hadn't considered.

 

Even shuffling the AC and save bonuses out into a different spell has issues (besides devSin groaning about another shell spell). If you cast improved invis (duration 300), and re-cast it 150 seconds into the spell, you'll be invisible for another 300 seconds (ends at 450) but your AC and save bonuses will expire when the original casting expires (at 300) since they were not renewed when you re-casted the spell.

 

Which of all of these possible solutions is least bad? I'd favor removing the stacking protections altogether, even though it'll allow the AC and saves to stack, though I'd like to get some more discussion here.

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Guest Truper

If Improved Invisibility didn't provide AC and save bonuses, what would be "improved" about it? Or do I misunderstand the implications of the last 3 posts?

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Protection from spells. Not that every spellcaster in the game doesn't force-cast True Seeing, but then it's dispelling the AC and save bonuses anyway.

 

All but one improved invisibility spell don't provide any sort of save bonuses in the default game; we add them, and we have to protect against further castings to prevent cumulative save bonuses. Not adding the save bonuses would remove the need to add the protection and return the spells to their default behavior (the AC bonus is automatic; I believe it's actually handled as a to hit penalty rather than actual AC buff).

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There's really two invisibilities.

 

One of these is the same as stealth: you get plus four to hit, enemies are penalized to hit, and they can't see you (so the penalty to hit isn't so apparent). This goes away when you attack.

 

There's the improved invisibility, which is that shimmer which means you can't be targeted by spells, but doesn't include any other bonus. This doesn't go away when you attack.

 

Improved Invisibility (the spell) actually gives both at once, as do all the other "higher" forms of invisibility.

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There's really two invisibilities.

 

One of these is the same as stealth: you get plus four to hit, enemies are penalized to hit, and they can't see you (so the penalty to hit isn't so apparent). This goes away when you attack.

 

There's the improved invisibility, which is that shimmer which means you can't be targeted by spells, but doesn't include any other bonus. This doesn't go away when you attack.

 

Improved Invisibility (the spell) actually gives both at once, as do all the other "higher" forms of invisibility.

 

And when does +4 bonus to saving throws/AC come in?

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The +4 to AC is implemented automatically as a -4 to hit - but for the regular kind of invisibility, so you tend to not notice it at all.

 

The +4 to saves doesn't ever happen with invisibility (either kind), it has to be added manually - and the only spell to do so is Mass Invisibility.

 

I think locally I'm going to revert to +4 saves for all of these, no trigger spells, immunity only to the spell that was actually cast. It isn't perfect, but without the ability to bind new effects to directly to STATE_IMPROVED_INVISIBILITY, nothing much will be.

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Oh. So there's no use to choose Improved Invisibility(level 4) with fixpack, because I get no kinky bonuses, not even to saving throws?

 

But Xyx's spell guide says that "This spell does not provide the bonus of 4 to Armor Class and saves at all." and that it's a bug. And I kinda trust this guy more than you people.

 

Especially since Improved Invisibility's(level 4) spell description does mention "Attacks against the invisible character suffer -4 penalties to the attack rolls, and the invisible character's saving throws are made with a +4 bonus.", and Invisibility(level 2) doesn't.

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Not at all.

 

I'm going to refer to stealth-like invisibility and shimmery invisibility from here on out.

 

Even in the unmodded game Improved Invisibility grants both kinds, after the stealth-like invisibility is lost from attacking or redecorating the shimmery stays. At the moment Fixpack also adds in +4 to saves for the duration of the shimmer - I don't really anticipate this changing, either.

 

Xyx is correct to note that Improved Invisibility does not provide an AC bonus. That doesn't contradict what I said about it giving enemies a -4 malus to hit. Mathematically they're the same (strictly speaking, enemy penalty is better because of base AC capping at -20) and it's totally hardcoded, so we can't swap the enemy penalty for a bonus anyway.

 

The baldurdash version of the spell actually provides an AC bonus of 8 by stacking +4 AC on top of the opponent's penalty..

 

The descriptions are not very accurate, all around. The Improved Invisibility description mentions a saving throw bonus that isn't there, and doesn't reiterate that you get +4 to hit (though you do, but only while both kinds of invisibility are in effect).

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You tell her, Nyth!

 

(the AC bonus is automatic; I believe it's actually handled as a to hit penalty rather than actual AC buff).
With all due deference to xyx, I don't routinely pull this stuff out my ass. If I mention an effective AC bonus, it's because the bonus is really there.
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The Improved Invisibility description mentions a saving throw bonus that isn't there,

 

Wait-wait-wait. If the description says a saving throw bonus should be there, then how can it not be included into Impoved Invisibility/Mass Improved Invisibility? I don't see how one can say "The developers are wrong" and dismiss their design out of hand.

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