bug related to 'Exploit to Keep Imported Items'

[CamDawg]

And I probably should've mentioned this the first time around, but I'd be more than happy to show you how to disable these fixes if you wish.

[Guest Guest]

Ok, Camdawg. Fair enough.

 

I could argue for days that nobody has yet provided a convicing case for including it in Core fixes, but I won't. (notice I keep referring to Core fixes. In other words, you would have no arguments from me if it was OBC).

 

Anyway, I accept your explanation.

 

 

And it's ok, I already know how to disable fixes myself.

[CamDawg]

We can seem like an obstinate, reactionary bunch, I know, but we do indeed have reasons for including stuff, even if not everyone agrees. The primary reason why I want folks to challenge the fixes (and the reasoning behind them) is that criticism usually provides insight or something else which may not have been considered. The team might find it an unlikely circumstance or it might not be compelling enough to make changes, but nothing is ever dismissed out of hand.

 

Hell, I'm not even satisfied with all the choices in the Fixpack, and I'm the one critics usually claim is single-handedly making all of these subjective decisions.

[devSin]

We can seem like an obstinate, reactionary bunch, I know, but we do indeed have reasons for including stuff, even if not everyone agrees. The primary reason why I want folks to challenge the fixes (and the reasoning behind them) is that criticism usually provides insight or something else which may not have been considered. The team might find it an unlikely circumstance or it might not be compelling enough to make changes, but nothing is ever dismissed out of hand.

I still think more than sufficient cause has been given to drop the intro cutscene patch. It's just not that good.

 

Hell, I'm not even satisfied with all the choices in the Fixpack, and I'm the one critics usually claim is single-handedly making all of these subjective decisions.

Such as. You may as well be single-handedly coding all these subjective decisions, and anything you're not happy with is probably something I'm not happy with. Dish, and let's see how many times you're saying something everybody is already thinking.

[Guest Guest]

Just one final thing I wanted to add, Cam.

 

The lack of support you're receiving should be indicative that you're either not presenting a very good case and/or people are not convinced.

 

Maybe so, but it could also mean that most players just don't care enough either way or are just not interested enough in debating this trivial issue for several pages. I bet very few people know about this exploit. That is why you dont hear much of it.

 

Now compare that with the other exploit - Keeping your imported items at the opening cutscene - A lot of players DO know about this exploit. That is why you apparently had previous debates on it and some players still disagree with it even though what you did seems like a rightful/just/proper fix.

[CamDawg]

Such as. You may as well be single-handedly coding all these subjective decisions, and anything you're not happy with is probably something I'm not happy with. Dish, and let's see how many times you're saying something everybody is already thinking.

Well, a couple of them are verboten by Gaider himself. I know Gaider said CWs are supposed to be LN, but I agree with Kish on this one and think LE is a much better default alignment for them. Free action, IMO, should protect against stun by default as well.

 

Some I'd still file under fixes, but I'm not satisfied with implementation as it feels... inelegant, for lack of a better word. Stuff along the lines of Jaheira Stutter Bug When Encountering Khalid's Body and Ambushers in Planar Sphere Sometimes Not Spawning, for example.

 

Elven and Half-Elven Resistance to Sleep and Charm is, I think, a bit of a Pandora's Box. Both dwarf and halfling racial descriptions in game have lines that could be interpreted the same way here. Same deal with More Than One Copy of Unique Items Can Be Obtained--we don't address Boots of Speed, but I'm pretty sure cutting the number available down to one would cause player riots (starting with me).

 

There are also a couple that I've been surprised haven't been challenged, as I'm borderline on them: Enchantment Level Errors (specifically Daystar) and Magically Created Weapons Have Zero Weight.

 

Maybe so, but it could also mean that most players just don't care enough either way or are just not interested enough in debating this trivial issue for several pages. I bet very few people know about this exploit. That is why you dont hear much of it.

You're right of course; I should never take silence as support for or against and I apologize.

 

A lot of the debates also fall under 'obscure engine arcana' that even fewer folks care about.

 

Now compare that with the other exploit - Keeping your imported items at the opening cutscene - A lot of players DO know about this exploit. That is why you apparently had previous debates on it and some players still disagree with it even though what you did seems like a rightful/just/proper fix.

Keep in mind that many of these objections were either "please drop, you've broken mod X" or "exploits aren't bugs". The latter especially, as it was the first exploit fix that was challenged so we had to go through the general rationale behind closing exploits.

[Kulyok]

I still think more than sufficient cause has been given to drop the intro cutscene patch. It's just not that good.

 

Hear, hear.

 

"I have to test this and that, why do I have to sit through the stupid cutscene" aside, I'm using DBG now just for the sheer fear of having my PC purple-circled all of a sudden after all these bug reports.

 

Maybe so, but it could also mean that most players just don't care enough either way or are just not interested enough in debating this trivial issue for several pages.

 

Quite. Had a debate on the other forum that went approximately like this:

Me: "A few extra pages of text - it is not a fix. It should be optional."

(a few pages of discussion as to why it should be optional follow)

"... yes, it should be optional."

Me: "Great."

"How about a few more paragraphs, then? Since it's just a few extra sentences added, it shouldn't be optional: it should be present in every install, for Fixpack and UB both."

Me: Sigh.

 

Talk about missing the point. I guess some users are just tired/lazy to go into all this trouble, when they can just uninstall the Fixpack or comment the offending content out.

 

Feedback, documentation, transparency, and the sheer number of bodies are all meant to minimize subjectivity.

 

I'd like to repeat my suggestion here, and to have every fix that's been approved by Bioware staff marked accordingly in the Fixpack documentation. I mean, I know this fix is okay for me, for example:

 

String #17890 associates the proper sound file with one of Valygar's lines.

String #35168 associates the proper sound file with one of Haer'Dalis' lines.

String #58250 associates the proper sound file with one of Ellisime's lines.

 

- because it was proposed by me. (I am baffled as to why Irenicus' lines weren't included, however). But I don't know about a miriad other fixes, and they are core fixes, I am forced to install them. So, seeing how many of them were confirmed by the developers would make me, personally, (and many other users, I am sure) much more confident. More, "Bioware-approved" stamp in the readme/release announcements, with small print "76% of the core fixes were approved/confirmed by the developers" looks catchy, especially if you get someone more or less official to issue a statement. And if there's a statement from Kevin Dorner the Baldurdash author, I'd bet a lot of Baldurdash supporters will become a lot less vocal. It's all PR.

[Kulyok]

There are also a couple that I've been surprised haven't been challenged, as I'm borderline on them: Enchantment Level Errors (specifically Daystar) and Magically Created Weapons Have Zero Weight.

 

Yeah, yeah, go on ignoring me, all right...

[Salk]

Same deal with More Than One Copy of Unique Items Can Be Obtained--we don't address Boots of Speed, but I'm pretty sure cutting the number available down to one would cause player riots (starting with me).

 

I am very sensible to this situation and I have two possible solutions:

 

1 - Reduce the numbers of the Boots of Speed to one (most consistant solution). The only problem here would be to individuate which pair of boots should be the chosen.

 

2 - Change the text description for the Boots of Speed (sub-optimal) to indicate this is not an unique item.

 

Also, for BGT users, I was wondering if there is any kind of check for unique items imported from BG1. If not, perhaps it would be the case to plan it...There is a Mod (Unique Artefacts) at SHS that does more or less what I am suggesting here but it has the problem of leaving the duplicates being used by the wearer (flagging them unstealable/undroppable).

 

What do you think ?

 

I am all for solution one. It might be an OBC component.

[CamDawg]

So, seeing how many of them were confirmed by the developers would make me, personally, (and many other users, I am sure) much more confident. More, "Bioware-approved" stamp in the readme/release announcements, with small print "76% of the core fixes were approved/confirmed by the developers" looks catchy, especially if you get someone more or less official to issue a statement. And if there's a statement from Kevin Dorner the Baldurdash author, I'd bet a lot of Baldurdash supporters will become a lot less vocal. It's all PR.

The number that are 'Bioware-approved' is exceedingly small, and I usually do try to mention it often and repeatedly to forestall any "but you don't know that" comments. The Gaider thread is about it, plus the handful Dorner confirmed that we fix as well. The devs simply aren't available and/or interested. There's a popular misconception that Dorner worked hand-in-glove with the devs, but he was in more or less the same boat. BD docs also mention where there's dev confirmation, and you'll observe it's also exceedingly small. As for BD, I don't see how 'all the fixes of Baldurdash plus a few hundred more' doesn't make this point already.

 

Besides, and in all honesty, if players are more comfortable with Baldurdash they should continue to use it.

[CamDawg]

Yeah, yeah, go on ignoring me, all right...

I remember, yes, but there were a number of folks jumping in on the other side with good arguments as well. I'm certainly more than willing to re-examine it.

 

- because it was proposed by me.

Most of these were already addressed by the GTU; only the ones that weren't already fixed were added. (And in all honesty, they should really either be all-GTU or all-Core Fixes instead of the current split.) I'm always a little hesitant with stuff like this because the lines may be slightly different in foreign language versions, or the sound files may not exist, etc.

[devSin]

Well, a couple of them are verboten by Gaider himself. I know Gaider said CWs are supposed to be LN, but I agree with Kish on this one and think LE is a much better default alignment for them. Free action, IMO, should protect against stun by default as well.

But what can you do? If Free Action had shipped as DG felt was intended, would it even be a question? There may have been some disconnect between the technical designers and the writers, but there isn't anybody around to challenge it; the current solution of removing it and allowing it to be restored seems like the best possible compromise to me (the only other approach I can see is to not touch the stun stuff at all and leave it in its hodgepodge state).

 

I agree that the Cowled Wizards are portrayed as a bit more sinister than a bunch of lawful neutral enforcers; to be honest, almost all of them are cutscene creatures that I don't feel we should be patching anyway (there's no chance for the player to interact with them, which is always a waste of override space), so I just don't care one way or the other.

 

Some I'd still file under fixes, but I'm not satisfied with implementation as it feels... inelegant, for lack of a better word. Stuff along the lines of Jaheira Stutter Bug When Encountering Khalid's Body and Ambushers in Planar Sphere Sometimes Not Spawning, for example.

Then back to the drawing board. What about Jaheira's fix isn't good enough? I think I proposed the original solution, and it may have been a direct re-implementation of Extremist's fix (I think I've long since redone it locally). The planar sphere ambush is a direct re-implementation of the Baldurdash fix (which I have never used; I've heavily modified large portions of the mage stronghold sequences so that they work better).

 

Just because we have something more or less already fixed doesn't mean that we're stuck using the same patching code forever. If it needs to be refined, it should be.

 

Elven and Half-Elven Resistance to Sleep and Charm is, I think, a bit of a Pandora's Box. Both dwarf and halfling racial descriptions in game have lines that could be interpreted the same way here.

I agree (I certainly don't do anything similar locally).

 

Same deal with More Than One Copy of Unique Items Can Be Obtained--we don't address Boots of Speed, but I'm pretty sure cutting the number available down to one would cause player riots (starting with me).

It looks clear that the designers didn't let the descriptions dictate usage of any of the items. While you'll only find one Ring of Gaxx, they didn't seem to have any trouble with forcing the player to assume that the Realms was littered with 'Sandthief's and their rings of invisibility, or that King Caster De'wess' wife shat out a million children, each of whom got a ring of protection.

 

I agree with Sim that it sucks, but I get away with it because I change their names (which was clearly the deciding factor in whether a designer could reuse an item or not). But if we can't apply the standard globally, then we're certainly better off not applying it all.

 

There are also a couple that I've been surprised haven't been challenged, as I'm borderline on them: Enchantment Level Errors (specifically Daystar) and Magically Created Weapons Have Zero Weight.

I actually went the reverse direction for enchantment (items with bonuses against only a certain subset of targets), giving them all the base enchantment level (Daystar is a +1 weapon, although it happens to be far more powerful used against the undead). There isn't really a way for us to "fix" anything here beyond choosing which we feel is most appropriate; in this case, I wouldn't really be bothered with just leaving them as they are (unless the enchantment doesn't match either aspect of the weapon).

 

Magically-created weapons should have 0 weight. There's no way for you do anything with them beyond wield them, and something that forces the player to have crap stuck in all their quick weapon slots shouldn't further penalize them by encumbering them (especially if the already equipped but inaccessible weapons also contribute to encumbrance; I can't remember how it works in IE). The fixpack takes this too far by extending the logic to physical items, such as the weapons created by the Enchanted Weapon spell or with Fire Seeds.

[CamDawg]

Some I'd still file under fixes, but I'm not satisfied with implementation as it feels... inelegant, for lack of a better word. Stuff along the lines of Jaheira Stutter Bug When Encountering Khalid's Body and Ambushers in Planar Sphere Sometimes Not Spawning, for example.

Then back to the drawing board. What about Jaheira's fix isn't good enough? I think I proposed the original solution, and it may have been a direct re-implementation of Extremist's fix (I think I've long since redone it locally). The planar sphere ambush is a direct re-implementation of the Baldurdash fix (which I have never used; I've heavily modified large portions of the mage stronghold sequences so that they work better).

Sorry, referenced the wrong fix here; Galvarey Stutters if Jaheira Returns to the Harper HQ While Invisible is probably a better example. The best way to fix something like this is really to add dialogue to Galvarey for this situation. I feel we're really forced into unsatisfactory fixes in situations like this, but anything as radical as adding new dialogue is well beyond the scope of a fix. For the assassins in the Planar Sphere, it's just more frustration with the devs--why ambushers would use the slowest possible spawn animations in the game, I don't know. All they're missing are flashing X's on the floor where they'll appear--in about 30 seconds after the spwood animation plays.

 

Magically-created weapons should have 0 weight. There's no way for you do anything with them beyond wield them, and something that forces the player to have crap stuck in all their quick weapon slots shouldn't further penalize them by encumbering them (especially if the already equipped but inaccessible weapons also contribute to encumbrance; I can't remember how it works in IE). The fixpack takes this too far by extending the logic to physical items, such as the weapons created by the Enchanted Weapon spell or with Fire Seeds.

So you're basically drawing the line at items that you can drop, i.e. good berries and other whatnot?

[CamDawg]

So I would not miss it if it were removed. But if you remove it now, how will react BGT-WeiDU which now detects BG2 FixPack ?

BGT basically removes the exploit fix, and they do it in a way that'll work regardless of whether it's still in the Fixpack or not. I don't know of any other mods that are currently working around it, so I think BGT would be the only worry here.

[Nythrun]

Elven and Half-Elven Resistance to Sleep and Charm is, I think, a bit of a Pandora's Box. Both dwarf and halfling racial descriptions in game have lines that could be interpreted the same way here.

 

I'm not seeing how the logic train runs from "dwarves and halfings mention a resistance bonus that exists in game and works" to "thus, the resistance to sleep mentioned in the elf description shouldn't exist"?

 

I'm pretty sure cutting the number available down to one would cause player riots (starting with me).

 

Please tell me that's a joke I'm too thick to get.