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Kulyok

Family matters in BG2 ***SPOILERS***

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I'd prefer to see this in BG2, but since there's no BG2 forum yet, I'll post it here. (I think it is possible to do it in BG1, as well, but since PC doesn't actually get to see where Lanie lives...)

 

It's quite a nasty deed, but since PC has an option to do a Very Nasty Thing to Gavin(see the thread with the green icon for spoilers) in BG1 already, here we go: "Lanie's Murder".

 

PC could pay someone to kill the girl. The most probable reason is jealousy(so she wouldn't have to compete, etc, etc), but there could be an "Imprison Keldorn's wife so he doesn't leave the party/Kill Gavin's brat so he doesn't leave the party" reason. (Also, an excellent way to show Gavin that, while he wouldn't befriend assassins, PC of every class could do even worse things. Like hiring assassins). There's a Thief Guild around, PC can even become a guildmaster(and one of his thieves specializes in assasinations). It's easy enough to arrange these things out of the party's earshot. Gavin may never find out... or he may leave the party... or... or what will he do?

 

That's a Very Wicked Thing for BG2 for you.

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I'd prefer to see this in BG2, but since there's no BG2 forum yet, I'll post it here. (I think it is possible to do it in BG1, as well, but since PC doesn't actually get to see where Lanie lives...)

 

It's quite a nasty deed, but since PC has an option to do a Very Nasty Thing to Gavin(see the thread with the green icon for spoilers) in BG1 already, here we go: "Lanie's Murder".

 

PC could pay someone to kill the girl. The most probable reason is jealousy(so she wouldn't have to compete, etc, etc), but there could be an "Imprison Keldorn's wife so he doesn't leave the party/Kill Gavin's brat so he doesn't leave the party" reason. (Also, an excellent way to show Gavin that, while he wouldn't befriend assassins, PC of every class could do even worse things. Like hiring assassins). There's a Thief Guild around, PC can even become a guildmaster(and one of his thieves specializes in assasinations). It's easy enough to arrange these things out of the party's earshot. Gavin may never find out... or he may leave the party... or... or what will he do?

 

That's a Very Wicked Thing for BG2 for you.

 

 

Wow that's mean. But I've kind of wondered like that sometimes myself. I've wanted to get rid of Lanie so she won't take all Gavin's attention. But really would a good pc do such a thing? He won't love a netral or evil one at all so how could such a thing work, not that I don't want a chance to try it.

I just had a thought that if the pc were pregnant or even thought she was she may really worry or get mad about the other daughter. All this is up to berelinde of course but the thoughts that come to mind are really possible for a woman to feel or want to do.

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Yes, a pregnancy might be a motivation, too - though berelinde mentioned that she wouldn't be introducing a pregnancy in any of her mods. Here.

 

And as for what the good character will and will not do - I think a good character wouldn't make Gavin multilate himself, either. This will make a paladin, for one, fall as easily as if she'd just committed a murder. But, a good character or no, I have a feeling that a "kill Lanie" option is going to introduce an interesting roleplaying choice.

 

(edit) Besides, the way things are in the game, PC will have an option to kill Lanie outside of Gavin's presence anyway, just like PC can murder the girl and/or her father in Xan's quest.

Edited by Kulyok

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Yes, a pregnancy might be a motivation, too - though berelinde mentioned that she wouldn't be introducing a pregnancy in any of her mods. Here.

 

And as for what the good character will and will not do - I think a good character wouldn't make Gavin multilate himself, either. This will make a paladin, for one, fall as easily as if she'd just committed a murder. But, a good character or no, I have a feeling that a "kill Lanie" option is going to introduce an interesting roleplaying choice.

 

(edit) Besides, the way things are in the game, PC will have an option to kill Lanie outside of Gavin's presence anyway, just like PC can murder the girl and/or her father in Xan's quest.

 

Thank you for the link. Okay, no pregnancy now or ever. Fair enough!

You are right in that the pc could kill Lanie outside of Gavin's sight. I had not thought of that. Yep a "kill Lanie" option will make roleplaying very interesting.

Hmmm I have Xan but haven't done the child and father quest in a game yet. I will have to see what happens. You modders think of everything! :)

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I'd prefer to see this in BG2, but since there's no BG2 forum yet, I'll post it here. (I think it is possible to do it in BG1, as well, but since PC doesn't actually get to see where Lanie lives...)

 

It's quite a nasty deed, but since PC has an option to do a Very Nasty Thing to Gavin(see the thread with the green icon for spoilers) in BG1 already, here we go: "Lanie's Murder".

 

PC could pay someone to kill the girl. The most probable reason is jealousy(so she wouldn't have to compete, etc, etc), but there could be an "Imprison Keldorn's wife so he doesn't leave the party/Kill Gavin's brat so he doesn't leave the party" reason. (Also, an excellent way to show Gavin that, while he wouldn't befriend assassins, PC of every class could do even worse things. Like hiring assassins). There's a Thief Guild around, PC can even become a guildmaster(and one of his thieves specializes in assasinations). It's easy enough to arrange these things out of the party's earshot. Gavin may never find out... or he may leave the party... or... or what will he do?

 

That's a Very Wicked Thing for BG2 for you.

 

 

Wow that's mean. But I've kind of wondered like that sometimes myself. I've wanted to get rid of Lanie so she won't take all Gavin's attention. But really would a good pc do such a thing? He won't love a netral or evil one at all so how could such a thing work, not that I don't want a chance to try it.

I just had a thought that if the pc were pregnant or even thought she was she may really worry or get mad about the other daughter. All this is up to berelinde of course but the thoughts that come to mind are really possible for a woman to feel or want to do.

 

Ooh, that is nicely evil. I can definitely say that I'll think about it.

 

This is an unmistakably evil action, and if Gavin ever found out, he would be devastated by the PC's betrayal. It would most certainly end the romance. If I included it, I'd definitely give him the chance to find out about it, possibly because he would insist on finding her killers. I'd like to introduce a random element there, sometimes he'd find out, sometimes he wouldn't.

 

I don't shy away from allowing the PC to roleplay evil, nor do I rule it out for a good PC. Roleplaying is all about choices, and it's up to the player to make those decisions.

 

I can even picture the scene: a shadowy figure observes a certain exchange involving Lanie, then slips away. After this exchange, Gavin leaves the party temporarily. If the PC decides to pass the time by resting somewhere, the figure would approach her with the offer.

 

No, there will be no pregnancy in any mod I write, except possibly as part of the epilogue, should the PC say she wants kids. I don't know how I feel about allowing the PC to lie to Gavin about a pregnancy, though. That might be fair game, and yet another way a PC might do something evil to Gavin.

 

Hiring an assassin to kill Lanie should definitely make a paladin fall, but I would be reluctant to code that unless there are other examples where a single monstrous act results in a paladin's fall.

Edited by berelinde

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You have enough to think about berelinde! These options are great and would be great fun to try out but don't lose sleep over it I say. Gavin is already a great romance and as much as I personally would love any Gavin for SOA I would rather have him sooner for SOA than later no matter how many other options we want for him. Of course there will probably be several SOA versions so new stuff can always be added. :)

I think I need to go and register here. :D

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Hiring an assassin to kill Lanie should definitely make a paladin fall, but I would be reluctant to code that unless there are other examples where a single monstrous act results in a paladin's fall.

 

Probably the simpest way to test that would be to have a paladin character (with 20 rep) kill an innocent, and see what happens. Most reputation losing acts in the game is not so much really evil as slightly self centred, normally involving insisting on payment for help. I can see this as an bad, but excusable thing for a paladin to do, since they tithe heavily to their temple so they may, in effect, be insisting on a donation to their deity.

 

I don't think I'd complain if my ranger or paladin immediately fell for deliberately killing, or having killed, an innocent for purely selfish reasons.

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Oh, there isn't any doubt that the premeditated murder of an innocent child for selfish reasons *should* make a paladin fall (ranger's a little closer to the grey area, though). I think I could look to the hell trials, perhaps for inspiration, should I decide to implement this.

 

If a paladin's decision to sacrifice a partymember to avoid losing a stat point would make a paladin fall (in an unmodified game), then I would feel a lot better about forcing the fall after hiring the assassin.

 

But thanks for the feedback, both BigRob and Guest. I need to think some more about it. It would certainly mean some changes to a certain ToB encounter.

Edited by berelinde

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Oh, there isn't any doubt that the premeditated murder of an innocent child for selfish reasons *should* make a paladin fall (ranger's a little closer to the grey area, though). I think I could look to the hell trials, perhaps for inspiration, should I decide to implement this.

 

If a paladin's decision to sacrifice a partymember to avoid losing a stat point would make a paladin fall (in an unmodified game), then I would feel a lot better about forcing the fall after hiring the assassin.

 

But thanks for the feedback, both BigRob and Guest. I need to think some more about it. It would certainly mean some changes to a certain ToB encounter.

 

 

Ok I registered. I'm glad you are thinking on this but don't worry overmuch. As a possible idea feel free to tell me if this is a dumb idea, but I've been thinking about Miranda. She doesn't love Gavin anymore and it seems like Lanie is just a piece of luggage for her. Maybe she and the pc can just arrange for Lanie to be sent somewhere far away. Or the pc can pay her to take off with Lanie for good. Or something like that and then the pc won't have to worry about feeling guilty for killing a child.

Edited by Ankhesenpaaten

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If you want to add in another option besides killing her, perhaps you could sell her into slavery. That guy at the Copper Coronet (forget name but starts with L) might be a contact for an evil PC. Or it could involve one of the guards on the slaver ship.

 

I mean, may as well turn a profit if you are going to get her out of the picture.

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Ok I registered.

Cool! :)

As a possible idea feel free to tell me if this is a dumb idea, but I've been thinking about Miranda. She doesn't love Gavin anymore and it seems like Lanie is just a piece of luggage for her. Maybe she and the pc can just arrange for Lanie to be sent somewhere far away. Or the pc can pay her to take off with Lanie for good. Or something like that and then the pc won't have to worry about feeling guilty for killing a child.

Miranda's role is already pretty much set, and I'm happy with the way it turned out.

 

What is known about Miranda in the vanilla game: she is teaching her daughter to lie, she is definitely motivated by money, she demonstrates that she does care for the girl (or she'd have sold her herself before this time - it's easier to extort men when unencumbered by a child, after all), she has asked Talon Nirkhas to take responsibility for "his child," she will attempt to use the same ploy on male party members, regardless of their race and regardless of whether or not they have witnessed the incident with Talon Nirkhas.

 

berelinde's highly subjective analysis of Miranda in the vanilla game: Miranda looks out for herself first, her daughter second. Should Talon Nirkhas have taken Miranda's claim literally, he would have full rights to the child, and could even take her away from Miranda, if he chose. Don't forget that he has the backing of a powerful faith, and one not known for either benevolence or fairness. If Nirkhas wanted to claim Lanie, there is a good chance his church would back him, and I don't think they'd be too worried about a mother's rights. Miranda seems willing to risk this, so I don't think Lanie's wellbeing is her primary motivation. I see Miranda as mercenary and unencumbered by scruples, but not necessarily cruel, despite the implied threat that Lanie is in for a good beating after the encounter.

 

Miranda lore introduced by BG1 Gavin: she and Gavin were lovers, Miranda either has no love of Gavin or is unsatisfied with the love of only one man, Gavin no longer loves Miranda, Lanie thinks Gavin is her biological father, Miranda is not the best parent, Miranda makes provison with neighbor Borland and his wife to care for Lanie during her frequent absences.

 

With that in mind, I don't think she's going to countenance selling Lanie to slavers. Because of the way the scene plays out, it will be impossible for the PC to talk to Miranda after the encounter in the Temple district anyway, but if it were possible, I don't think she'd do it. She wants what's best for herself, primarily, but she also wants what's best for Lanie.

 

And that's all I'll say about it right now.

 

I'm going to move this part of the thread, because there really should be a BG2 suggestions thread.

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berelinde's highly subjective analysis of Miranda in the vanilla game: Miranda looks out for herself first, her daughter second. Should Talon Nirkhas have taken Miranda's claim literally, he would have full rights to the child, and could even take her away from Miranda, if he chose. Don't forget that he has the backing of a powerful faith, and one not known for either benevolence or fairness. If Nirkhas wanted to claim Lanie, there is a good chance his church would back him, and I don't think they'd be too worried about a mother's rights.

 

Are you sure that such a thought even arises? I might be biased culturally, but I saw that Miranda-Talon situation as a typical one in Russia: even if the priest was the real father, he'd just give the woman some money and walk away - the thought of taking care of a bastard child wouldn't even arise. Very few men in his place would even think of it - he'd have to be another Gavin or something. :)

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Dunno. Maybe. My thoughts the first time I witnessed the exchange were along the lines of "OMG! That woman just tied to give away her own kid!"

 

Everyone is different, but I know I'm not *that* unique. If I'm thinking that, surely somebody else would be, too.

 

It's a remote risk, as I'm sure that many men, whether they be in the Forgotten Realms, Russia, or the US, would probably just look for the easy way out. But it is a risk, nonetheless.

 

Lanie's line "I liked the other daddies better" makes me think that she expects her contact with the men to extend beyond the exchange a few coins. If it were all a game to her, and she didn't expect to see the man again, it wouldn't matter much to her whether she liked him or not.

 

But that is why it's a subjective analysis. It helps the player understand why the scene plays out the way it does, and why I've written it out the way I have.

 

If anyone wants a preview of the particular exchange, it's already written, so send a PM. But it contains spoilers too serious to post here, even in a marked thread.

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I also want to say that this was always intended to be a deal-breaker conversation for Gavin. Not everyone will like how it's handled, and not everyone will like Gavin after the conversation plays out. But it's important to his character that it stay the way it is, since this very conversation was the reason he exists in the Forgotten Realms at all.

 

Gavin was a PnP character for 28 years. I knew him well. The first time I saw that exchange between Miranda, Nirkhas, and Lanie, the thought that followed "OMG! That woman just tried to give away her own kid!" was "That really was a pathetic lie. I wonder who would have fallen for it?" The obvious answer was "Gavin." And he did claim Lanie as his own, by virtue of Miranda's own words, or as it was then, the assertion that she was carrying his child. Gavin's thought process: "You have said you carry my child, so the child you carry is mine. She is my daughter, I am her father. End of argument."

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