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Domi

Is there interest in more BG'rising of IWD2?

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My fear is that IWD2's plot may be too difficult or impossible to save - I mean, even NWN1 OC/Hordes of the Underdark was better in terms of a plot. With IWD2, it's a lame villain in every town and a very linear plot with some very irritating puzzles - pull this lever this way and that way and that way again and press that button nine times or you won't get into the next chapter. What I've seen of IWD1 so far isn't loads better, though it might be... but, yeah, on the whole, I'm not sure IWD series might be worth it.

The IWD2 is far from good in the current incarnation, but it has small elements that could shine if properly builded upon. True it does use the classic "villain framework" but the are moments when one feels far more sympathetic towards the twins than the "good party", this could be very well developed into something more interesting, less black-n-white (disillusionment of the "heroes" etc) . Whereas NWN1 OC while far more polished is basically what it is, no much room for improvement by adding stuff, rather a whole reworking of the plot would be needed. So, in my opinion, at least in terms of modding potential IWD2 is superior to NWN1.

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My thoughts exactly. ;)

 

And to add to this, not only NWN2 tells you at every point *where* to go next, it also dictates *whom* to have in your party for 80% of the game. I find it very unnerving and way too bossy.

Edited by Domi

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Guest Freedan the Eternal

My fear is that IWD2's plot may be too difficult or impossible to save - I mean, even NWN1 OC/Hordes of the Underdark was better in terms of a plot. With IWD2, it's a lame villain in every town and a very linear plot with some very irritating puzzles - pull this lever this way and that way and that way again and press that button nine times or you won't get into the next chapter. What I've seen of IWD1 so far isn't loads better, though it might be... but, yeah, on the whole, I'm not sure IWD series might be worth it.

The IWD2 is far from good in the current incarnation, but it has small elements that could shine if properly builded upon. True it does use the classic "villain framework" but the are moments when one feels far more sympathetic towards the twins than the "good party", this could be very well developed into something more interesting, less black-n-white (disillusionment of the "heroes" etc) . Whereas NWN1 OC while far more polished is basically what it is, no much room for improvement by adding stuff, rather a whole reworking of the plot would be needed. So, in my opinion, at least in terms of modding potential IWD2 is superior to NWN1.

 

While IWD2 is far from good, it is far from terrible at the same time. It always seemed to me that it, and the original IWD, were attempting to tell a much larger story, encompassing the effect of a conflict on the people of the nation, rather than simply following a group of adventurers through their next great quest. In the BG series, once you were done with some place, you left and it wasn't brought up again, and BG2 was even worse about this. In the IWD games, the focus is taken away from the little band of heroes and put more on the impact of the conflict they were involved in.

 

Now, by adding detail into the little band of heroes without detracting from the tale of their impact, IWD2 stands to be improved exponentially. And the idea of adding a moral dilemma to the plot as well would possibly improve it even further. The BG series suffered in that area by the fact there was usually a clear cut good/evil difference in the ways of handling things. If we're talking about adding a method of "disillusionment" of the heroes of IWD2, I would think that it should move back an forth, where at several points one would be convinced that one side or the other is the "right" one. At at other points, the player would be faced with a decision that doesn't seem to have a "correct" solution, and would essentially be choosing sides rather than choosing the the "right" thing to do.

 

I'd offer to help with such a mod, but I don't know the first thing about that. If you're interested when the opportunity comes up, though, I'm a pretty good writer and would be willing to help out in that department.

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If we're talking about adding a method of "disillusionment" of the heroes of IWD2, I would think that it should move back an forth, where at several points one would be convinced that one side or the other is the "right" one. At at other points, the player would be faced with a decision that doesn't seem to have a "correct" solution, and would essentially be choosing sides rather than choosing the the "right" thing to do.

 

It's a computer game, so you can't do too much of 'rethinkings', unfortunately, because you are going to end up with a coding nightmare, because just like the population, the game would have no idea whom you are working for, and which quests should be made available next, so there is a relatively high % that the player gets stuck in the end of say Chapter 5 with nowhere to go. But a few early cross-the-lines, and of course a few different endings when you got to the very end of the line are very much a possibility. I definetly not going to get into good-evil solutions thing. The OC story-line is as 'good' as it gets. All others will be shady in one way or another.

 

Anyway, I need to get my hands dirty with NWN2 before I can pick one project over the other, but I am pretty happy that there is interest in IWD2.

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While IWD2 is far from good, it is far from terrible at the same time.

Well, "neither good nor bad" means "boring" very often. And IWD2 was boring, for me at least, when I played it in its "raw" version, - mostly because the game was deprived of individuality. So, I was excited when I began to explore it with IWD2NPC ;) and now I definitely want to try BG'ising version of IWD2.

 

Anyway, I need to get my hands dirty with NWN2 before I can pick one project over the other, but I am pretty happy that there is interest in IWD2.

Regardless of what choice will be made (IWD2 or NWN2) one can't come off a loser in that situation, I think ;) .

Edited by Mika

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And to add to this, not only NWN2 tells you at every point *where* to go next, it also dictates *whom* to have in your party for 80% of the game. I find it very unnerving and way too bossy.

I don't want to digress too much, but I still do not have NWN2 and you got me curious here - what kind of bossiness are we talking about? Is it like "take Yoshimo because he's the only thief" or something more bossy?

 

On the subject of "disillusionment" I mentioned earlier, I've always agreed with Jester that one of the main faults of IWD2 was the fact that after all the presentations of the motives of the twins (how they were betrayed, persecuted, even one could say forced into the fight) one still was not able to take their side. The "alternative" ending that is there is actually pretty much the same, you still get to fight the Twins just for different reasons and with different aims. Big deal. It'd be far more fun to have an alternative "show-down" in Targos fighting on the Twins side (yes, still to say true to the spirit of the game I believe IWD2 should end with a fight). Of course it would require quite a bit of dialog throughout the game showing that the "heroes" are losing the faith in their mission. I think it could be interesting, as in fact whichever path would the player choose none would be "good".

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I don't want to digress too much, but I still do not have NWN2 and you got me curious here - what kind of bossiness are we talking about? Is it like "take Yoshimo because he's the only thief" or something more bossy?

 

Nope, it ranges from "This guy will lead you on the mission X, so he is joining the party. Kick out one of your companions" to "We decided that character Y will join your party for the whole of Act 2, stay with you throughout it and have a say in everything, but look! we added the NPC Y as an *additional* one, so you don't have to kick anyone out, arn't we generous!" to "You are going to the important ceremony Z alone, no matter what you say, and if you object a very nice non-joinable NPC A will yell at you, so you go alone and fight alone!" to "We decided that on that mission you can take 2 NPCs only and a contingent of nameless soldiers. Pick your two NPCs and go!" And there is just no respite from it. Basically, the moment you settle in into your party, they strip it off or helpfully reshuffle it for you. It's insane.

Edited by Domi

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For what it's worth, if you added more content to IWD2, I'd definitely play it ;)

 

However, you should go with whatever option makes YOU happy ;)

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Heh, I don't know yet. I am under a green spell right now, writing like a madwoman the small mod for NWN2. I think I will have enough material tomorrow to start setting up the first intro part of it, then I will at least have some idea about Electron's useability.

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Guest Guest_Mayro_*

He, just forgot to log in. I'm Mayro by the way.

 

To answer to your question Domi I will only say that for me there's always interest in anything mod related that comes from you. You still have me mad about Dynaheir romance, so please do with IWD2 anything you want. Write all you want please.

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Heh, Domi you are right nwn2 sucks. I simply gave it up.

I bought it, and i regretted it.

Obsidian/BlackIsle's greatest hit was PST, and they decline ever since that.

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Thanks for your vote of confidence, Mayro!

 

Avenger, I can't say that the *entire* of NWN2 sucks. It does have some good sections and interesting ideas, a handful of good dialogues.... But the party management and the ending are certainly *not* among the good parts. ;)

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Just a side-comment on NWN2 voicing. I really think you could get by without it.

 

You can change conversations so that they bring up the small, black conversation box like in NWN1. I think that for non-voiced conversations using that style makes them blend in fairly well. It worked for me in NWN1 (I played several NWN1 mods and liked them, even without any voicing). Or you could go with partial voicing for major scenes and use the standard NWN2 conversation method that zooms in on the characters just for those parts.

 

Anyways, I don't regret buying NWN2. It has some *really* irritating problems, but I enjoyed playing it and will pick up the expansion. My biggest regret is that I haven't been able to find any quality player-made mods. There just don't seem to be as many modders on-board with it yet. I think a lot got frustrated with the toolset, which was buggy as heck at release and still has some issues.

 

Not trying to push you one way or the other. I'd play either mod, especially since I have liked things you have done in the past. Just wasn't sure if you knew that this option was available.

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Well, yes, but I am still not fond of the idea of modding OC per se. I kind of feel that the beauty of the NWN2 modding is in creating your own stuff. The areas looks far nicer than NWN1 square worlds, though I wish I had artistic talent ;)

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I wasn't thinking about you modding the OC at all. I'm not actually sure it is legal to mod it and distribute it. I was just talking in general.

 

Besides, the OC is going to be continued in the expansion, so any modding to it would be risky with respect to storyline.

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