Staying Alive!

[FredSRichardson]

Well, now I understand why the IWD2 creators did things the way they did.

 

Almost all of the chapter 1 creatures have a luck of -3

Almost all of the chapter 1 archers wield a bow that does -4 damage

 

I found out why. Normal creatures just wipe out a level 1 party. Arrows are especially bad. Bah...

 

Of course, special strategies can always prevail but it requires a lot of meta-gaming.

 

For now, I'm going to follow the IWD2 design strategy and nerf the early monsters. I wish I knew what went wrong with the engine (early version of NWN1 had over-powered bows too).

[Guest Guest]

That's a really interesting find. I wonder if something actually went wrong with the engine or it's just that the Targos docks for instance are so combat heavy that there is no way a level one party could make it through several groups of goblins without heavy losses unless said goblins were pre-smacked with the nerf bat.

[Domi]

Staying alive is always a problem in IWD2. Heh, I wish they just reduced the numbers of enemies everywhere.

[FredSRichardson]

It seems like bows are really tough to deal with early on. A few shots take out a party member.

 

I'm guessing the game designers realized the problem early on: that the damage from single opponents would be too high. And the XP is also pretty low. So they nerfed the early monsters and had you fight horde's of them.

 

I have to tweak the XP somehow because IWD1 doesn't have the same hordes of monsters. This might take a little tooling around...

[cmorgan]

Well... strange suggestion here - but what if you left the monsters alone, and set beginning character minimum experience to level 3?

 

The game is predicated on your party being attracted to the area with a small amount of experience, but you aren't required to be babies...

[Guest Guest]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was i the notes regarding Wiemer's Icewind Gate conversion, that 3E characters tend to grow in power faster, i.e. a 3rd level 3E character might be as powerful as a 5th or 6th level AD&D character.

 

Not sure if this is true or not, but if it is, then mayber the slower character advancement isn't really an issue.

[Domi]

Unfortunately, starting the *whole* party on a higher level is not really advantageous under IWD2 (which I assume be the same for IWD1-TUTU). What happens is the game scales experience it grants based on the average party level, so if you start on level 3, you might survive the initial encounter, but have a problem slightly down the road. One way to make IWD2 proper a bit easier is to start your characters at different levels or having one of the 'XP-behind' characters, with the lower-level companions making XP-gaining faster for all the party.

[Guest Guest_Borsook_*]

Unfortunately, starting the *whole* party on a higher level is not really advantageous under IWD2 (which I assume be the same for IWD1-TUTU). What happens is the game scales experience it grants based on the average party level, so if you start on level 3, you might survive the initial encounter, but have a problem slightly down the road. One way to make IWD2 proper a bit easier is to start your characters at different levels or having one of the 'XP-behind' characters, with the lower-level companions making XP-gaining faster for all the party.

Personally I'd be against too much "nerfing" especially if numbers of monsters are considered, IWD1/2 is too easy as it is and one of the benefits of conversion to IWD2 engine is that it is the first IE incarnation that has difficulty settings that matter. I am sure that those who find it difficult will be able to survive on the easiest setting, and any serious balancing should come in after the conversion is running properly not before, in my opinion.

[Guest Guest]

I always feel the hardest part of IWD2 is often the beginning, up till the end of the assault on the horde fortress. The reason for this is that, even though fighter type characters are useful from level 1, magic using characters are a liability until they can cast level 3 spells. By that time, they have a sufficient repertoire of spells to not have to rest after each battle, can cast enough useful buffs to make a difference during combat, and actually do some damage.

 

It would make sense for the initial monsters to be underpowered - with most characters having between 6-14 hit points on first level, many would not survive a single shot.

[FredSRichardson]

Yes, you really see this with enemy archers. An un-nerfed archer can take out a mage in one shot, and just about anyone else in two shots. You'll also notice that your own archers are very powerful

 

I was comparing this to NWN, and there I recall (in a typical campaign) not going up against Orc's and Goblin's until later levels. Typically, I'd start off killing bugs for maybe the first 4 levels.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I was comparing this to NWN, and there I recall (in a typical campaign) not going up against Orc's and Goblin's until later levels.

 

IMO, it's all about the proper CR and EL handling. In D&D 3.5, an Orc's CR is 1/2 and a Goblin's CR is 1/3 so a proper encounter for a standard level 1 four-person party would consist of either 2 Orcs or 3 Goblins. Of course, these values are suited for the default monster templates (level 1 Warriors in both cases) and can vary according to the Orc/Goblin's class and levels.

 

BTW, if you want to get a rough estimate of the EL for a monster group you can use the Encounter Level Calculator.

[FredSRichardson]

Thanks Avenger!

 

I've been trying to bone up on this stuff. I've gotten my hands on all the 3(.5)E materials and I'm still trying to acquire the complete set of AD&D 2E materials (all this thanks to torrents!). I've been going back and forth, comparing CRE's from both games to their comparable stats in the manual, and then trying to make some decisions on how to modify things. I've been setting what I believe is the CR field in the CRE, but I'm wondering if the two XP fields have any influence at all beyond this. My problem is that the party is leveling too slowly. I don't want to artificially crank up all the CR's (and leave the monsters the same), but perhaps I could crank up the quest rewards.

 

As for nerfing, perhaps the real problem is real-time vs. turn-based play. In a turn-based system, you might be able to take more careful consideration of where party members are and what they're doing. If you don't turn on all the auto-pausing in IWD2, a group of archers can tear you apart before you manage to cast a spell (I was having trouble with manual pausing).

 

I don't know if you've checked out ToEE, but one really great thing about that game was the turn-based combat system. The game itself was released in an almost unplayable state, but the "co8" modding team really did wonders. It still lacks a lot of content in comparison to Bioware/BIS games, but I overall I'd recommend it with the co8 mods.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I've been setting what I believe is the CR field in the CRE, but I'm wondering if the two XP fields have any influence at all beyond this. My problem is that the party is leveling too slowly. I don't want to artificially crank up all the CR's (and leave the monsters the same), but perhaps I could crank up the quest rewards.

 

Granted, I'm not very familiar with the IWD2 incarnation of the Infinity Engine, but in general, my advice would be to lower the quantity of the enemies where needed (in accordance to the desired EL) rather than reduce their luck and other attributes. I'm advising this because most monsters are much tougher in D&D 3.x than they were in 2E AD&D.

 

I don't know if you've checked out ToEE, but one really great thing about that game was the turn-based combat system. The game itself was released in an almost unplayable state, but the "co8" modding team really did wonders. It still lacks a lot of content in comparison to Bioware/BIS games, but I overall I'd recommend it with the co8 mods.

 

Yup, played through it twice back in 2003. It definitively had (and probably still has) the best D&D combat implementation in a cRPG medium. However, the week (read: non-existent) story and the crapload of bugs were a huge turn off for me, though I heard that the CO8 mods have rectified both issues to an extent. Hmm, I might give it another whirl when I get more free time.

[FredSRichardson]

' date='Aug 13 2007, 09:04 AM' post='94505']

I've been setting what I believe is the CR field in the CRE, but I'm wondering if the two XP fields have any influence at all beyond this. My problem is that the party is leveling too slowly. I don't want to artificially crank up all the CR's (and leave the monsters the same), but perhaps I could crank up the quest rewards.

 

Granted, I'm not very familiar with the IWD2 incarnation of the Infinity Engine, but in general, my advice would be to lower the quantity of the enemies where needed (in accordance to the desired EL) rather than reduce their luck and other attributes. I'm advising this because most monsters are much tougher in D&D 3.x than they were in 2E AD&D.

I think you may be on to something there. In IWD2, the makers decided to make the game all about battling horde's, and maybe this was the main reason for the nerfage. IWD1 actually has smaller monster groups generally until you reach higher levels. But those early encounters with say 2 Orc Warriors and 1 Orc Archer can be deadly to the level 1 party. I'll see if I can understand this better.

 

I don't know if you've checked out ToEE, but one really great thing about that game was the turn-based combat system. The game itself was released in an almost unplayable state, but the "co8" modding team really did wonders. It still lacks a lot of content in comparison to Bioware/BIS games, but I overall I'd recommend it with the co8 mods.

 

Yup, played through it twice back in 2003. It definitively had (and probably still has) the best D&D combat implementation in a cRPG medium. However, the week (read: non-existent) story and the crapload of bugs were a huge turn off for me, though I heard that the CO8 mods have rectified both issues to an extent. Hmm, I might give it another whirl when I get more free time.

Well, co8 did an impressive job I thought on fixing the bugs. I think the main (only?) developer helped them out a lot. But I have to say that even with the fixes, the game is kind of hollow. They might have added some interesting content now (it's been a while since I checked).

 

At one time I thought it'd be interesting to port a bioware game to the ToEE engine, but in retrospect I think it would crap out in too many ways. The combat system really is the shining star of ToEE.

[Guest Guest_Borsook_*]

Well, co8 did an impressive job I thought on fixing the bugs. I think the main (only?) developer helped them out a lot. But I have to say that even with the fixes, the game is kind of hollow. They might have added some interesting content now (it's been a while since I checked).

 

At one time I thought it'd be interesting to port a bioware game to the ToEE engine, but in retrospect I think it would crap out in too many ways. The combat system really is the shining star of ToEE.

Co8 is still alive and modding, new stuff is constantly being added, plus there is an interesting TC.