Commentary

[Guest Confused]

That's my stance. I have nothing more to add to it, nor indeed will I: Unless somebody posts something that's genuinely new and worth replying to, I'm outta here. Contrary to popular belief, I did not come here to be shouted down, and won't continue to do so. Good night, y'all.

 

And that's what I get for not reading the final reply closely enough. Never mind I guess.

[Western Paladin]

The Long and the Short of It:

1) If one manages to defeat Improved Demogorgon, one has a different roleplaying path through Watcher's Keep, as well as the satisfaction of having beaten that particularly difficult battle. I want these to stay denied to those parties who lack the power and skill to defeat Improved Demogorgon.

2) If one has a suffiently high Wisdom, or has at least one certain other high-Wisdom NPC in the party, one can convince the Spectator Beholder to let them open the chest without provoking a fight--thus enabling one to continue on one's path without being forced to kill a very likable and entertaining NPC. I would like this dialogue option to remain denied to those characters who lack the mental stats that would likely enable them to outwit the Spectator in real-time.

3) If one manages to win the personal attention and possible affection of Aran Linvail, one has a different roleplaying path (e.g., letting him live in Chapter 6, instead of just killing everyone for the EXP), as well as the satisfaction of having charmed your way into the heart of a very cultured, sophisticated, respected Shadowmaster who could have pretty much any woman he wants. I would like this to be denied to those characters who couldn't charm their way into the heart of a man who's been marooned for 30 years.

To me, making a woman who's equally likely to be swayed by Korgan as she is by Keldorn makes exactly as much sense as altering Demogorgon so that he's equally likely to be killed by a well-balanced, high-level party as he is by a blind, one-legged Solo Beastmaster.

 

 

At the risk of being excessively glib, and posting something that the guy it's addressed to may never read, and no-one may ever reply to:

 

What exactly is it to you?

 

Seriously, does it really bother you that much that characters you think aren't "worthy" of certain roleplaying paths can get them? I'm not sure that's the most important thing to be worried about here, and I'm not sure that it's your job, or any other modder's, to be deciding who does and doesn't get to see which content.

 

BTW, I think the comparison with a combat mod full of characters with AC 20 and no weapons is a little off target. A combat mod is intended for an entirely different purpose than Romantic Encounters and is designed in an entirely different way.

[jastey]

SixofSpades posted suggestions, nothing more.

For Hendak, I liked it very much. From next version, Hendak will check repuation > 11, no longer PC's alignment.

Thank you for the idea!

[berelinde]

@6oS, you might not have come here to be shouted down, but neither did we. We didn't spend hours/days/weeks of our lives writing encounters just so somebody could come along and say they were ridiculous. Laran took an entire month to write, working on no other projects. That's a lot for something that can be completed in a dozen clicks. I know from cmorgan that Sheri took just as long. I don't know about cm, but I know I actually put a lot of thought into what Laran's acceptance standards would be. While the other encounters didn't take quite as long, I still did give that aspect some thought before deciding I wanted an open approach. I'm sorry you don't agree, but kindly do not tell me that I am mistaken about what the character I wrote would or would not want.

 

Regarding the spectator beholder, Demogorgon, et al, there's a difference between an encounter that advances the story of BG and one that's there just for fun. Things that happen in Romantic Encounters don't have any effect on the plot of the game. Gaelan doesn't reduce the fee, Laran doesn't give you free passes to the Order ball, Teos won't hand over Imoen if you get him out of his robe. They're just there to amuse the player.

 

The G3 Anniversary mod is a lot of fun. It's engaging and entertaining, and completely and utterly silly, at times. I am certain that it took a considerable time to write. It doesn't contribute to the plot of the game at all, yet it is highly enjoyable, nevertheless. One might argue that a paladin shouldn't encourage the quest-giver's alcoholism by giving him all those drinks, but a paladin can still complete the quest. Will my paladin help the guy get a buzz on? Dunno, but it's my choice.

[magrat]

Yes, leaving the mod without restrictions is certainly one way of allowing individual gamers to roleplay on their own terms: If they feel that their stats aren't good enough to have attracted the attentions of Character X, they can simply decline to pursue the encounter. Except that there's a problem with that: You don't own Coran.

 

etc etc...

 

Replying to this is totally pointless, if you really do not intend to read any more on it: but I'm afraid I'm a stubborn wench, and if I have something to say, I'll say it, even if the target is as unresponsive as a brick wall.

 

1. I don't own Coran (or come even close to it -- there's another, much more capable (proper!) modder than I who would be miles ahead of me in line, I'm afraid). I don't own Busya. I don't own much in life, really, but this is all beside the point. Your argument to my response was, to me, quite frankly ridiculous. If it had a point, I'm afraid it was lost on me -- the fact is, I wrote some dialogue, I submitted it, and it was included. I've already said before, the little I contributed to this is for Kulyok to adjust and alter as she sees fit -- the only thing I would specifically not want her to change is Coran's portrait, as it is the default one (and, yes, I quite like it).

 

2. I really don't see why the components have bothered you quite this much I'll not deny that you have some valid points, and some suggestions some people wanted to adopt. As I merely submitted dialogue, I'm not going to be deciding if the changes happen to Coran/Busya, because it'll come down to Kulyok. Kulyok might not own general Busya or Coran, but she does, in effect, own these new lines that they speak.

 

3. I will be completely honest. I have played the BG games too many times to count. Not as in-depth as some, not as many conclusive times as others. But I have played it. Lots. Enough to find there's very little left to surprise me. It was a good game, and I got the maximum benefit of the ££ I invested in it (despite it being a present for my husband, originally, that I hijacked... ho hum.) New Mods give new content, yes -- but the ones I've played have not altered the general storlyline enough for me to not risk becoming bored with fighting the same Yuan-ti, facing the same dialogue options, going through Hell, etc. With that in mind, it's really hard for me to imagine playing through a mod which would, in many senses, require me to start out again with seventeen different characters. I played all three paths of Xan's friendship and romance, not too long ago -- that was hard enough, because the game itself became repetitive.

 

I think it's unlikely there'll be terribly many new players coming to the game, really. Of course, it's a good game, and there will always be someone who's not played it -- but how many of them are aware of modding? I can't be the only one out there who has played the game to death, but still has enough fondness for it to want to try new things when they're released, even if it means having some half-hearted attempt at playing just to get to the content I want to experience.

 

And if it was decided that these restrictions WERE going to come in, then I'm afraid that Shadowkeeper would become my friend. I simply don't have the time, the energy, or the eagerness to play with the feeling and determination to truly roleplay my character (I always could do good and evil, but neutrals and I don't tend to mix well), and I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

And as one last side note: I do think it would have been better if you'd played some of the components before deciding to voice an opinion on them. Sure, you don't need to play Coran to have the objection you have, but we can all interpret characters different ways. You might think he's caught up after losing the love of his life, and uninterested because the woman now standing before him isn't Keira Knightly; but I see him more as an elf who has realised he's free to sleep around again, and sees what could possibly be his last chance at some action before the long trek to Athkatla. And let us not forget that it's not just the PC he'll hit on in this particular encounter, thus further demonstrating it. If you don't like it, don't install it

[Kulyok]

SimDing0 has commented on PC's chances of success in the mod, as well; so did Domi. It is all valuable insight, and it is an interesting topic - and I well admit that version 1 is heavily biased towards success in these romantic adventures. I'd like to play with PC's bruised ego a little in version 3 - both to compensate for this, and because I have stories to tell - and I invite everyone present to join in. But, again, it comes up to the author what story they have in mind.

 

I do like to read any and all feedback - and I have enjoyed the discussion. However, I too think that there might have been fewer misunderstandings, if we were talking about the mod's actual content - Readme alone does not, and will not, provide full information, just as Xan's readme does not reveal ultimate spoilers about his behavior or his fate, or Gavin's - about his secrets. I mean, there're only so many times I can point out that PC is not romantically involved with Aran Linvail.

[Guest guest]

Not sure I want to side with Six but I do think that those who think there should be no restrictions should put their money where their mouth is. NO restrictions at all. Not even race or gender. So every PC who plays gets the Romance just by standing there. If you want to complain about needing to get every romance in one game, that's the only way.

[berelinde]

Hmmm. I don't remember anybody telling me to rewrite Gavin with different romance requirements. Maybe I'm blocking the memory.

 

After actually playing the various components, instead of just checking the readme, it's always possible even 6oS might revise a few of those opinions. Anyway, this kind of thing is up to the modder.

[Kulyok]

Not sure I want to side with Six but I do think that those who think there should be no restrictions should put their money where their mouth is.

 

*blink* You do know I have IP tracking here, do you?

[Ajnos]

Not sure I want to side with Six but I do think that those who think there should be no restrictions should put their money where their mouth is. NO restrictions at all. Not even race or gender. So every PC who plays gets the Romance just by standing there. If you want to complain about needing to get every romance in one game, that's the only way.

 

Okay, hostility aside.. this is a point which I considered initially. And if I have time I might amend what I wrote so that a male!PC could attempt an appeal to Logan (or the future NPC that I am considering) on initially equal footing. Characterization being what it is, success isn't assured.

 

That said, I believe restrictions already exist, only they aren't marked with "WIS18 only" in the readme. Based on what I have read and played it seems that every writer decided how the character would act, how far they would go and what they would like. What is missing is a breakdown in easy to see numbers. Generally, Laran responds to kindness (Which is WIS? Goodness? INT?), Bjornin asks for honesty (That's Lawfulness maybe?), Hendak needs saving and Aimi wants a hero (Both of those could be STR or Goodness or INT?). And you can shut down every single one of these, except maybe Noober (damn you, cmorgan, damn yooooooou!), by picking the wrong response to that person. So all the required/boosted charisma in the world won't save you if you act like an ass.

 

Finally, gender isn't as flexible as race. For some encounters, there is extra writing work involved though, "parts is parts" only goes so far when specifics are mentioned. It's a bit easier to forget what your specific CHA stat is than overlook the part that mentions your male hero's womanly beauty. Still, I had a female!PC that would have liked to go for a walk (or asked at least) with Busya even if she ultimately shot her down.

[berelinde]

Not sure I want to side with Six but I do think that those who think there should be no restrictions should put their money where their mouth is.

 

*blink* You do know I have IP tracking here, do you?

 

If anybody sees any guest posting from my house, somebody please call the cops!

[SixOfSpades]

Problem solved--turns out that "guest" was Pat, a guy at my work I'd been talking to about this. Frankly, I'm just glad he didn't say anything about yo momma, as is his wont. I'll post again later, when I'm not supposed to be working, giving brief responses to other comments. Not that I'm debating the point anymore--if I haven't convinced you by now, I never will.

[Kitanna]

I have to agree with Magrat about playing BG to death......because I too

certainly have. I love the game but have played it to the point of

boredom. RE, in my oppinion, was created by some very talented

people who wanted to bring something fun into the game.

A ton of restrictions to me, makes it more hassle than fun and I too

would have to make SK my best freind. It is a shame that RE can't

be seen as it is, a very fun mod. I can't even begin to imagine

the hours and work that goes into creating just 1 of the 40 encounters

in this mod. And yes, judging ANY mod by the readme instead of

actually playing it before you rip it apart is ridiculous and unfair not

only to the mod but to everyone who worked very hard to make it.

Making suggestions is one thing, insulting their work is another.

[SixOfSpades]

There's no "winning the heart of" [Aran Linvail] or anything remotely like what you're talking about.

That's largely irrelevant, as I was obviously only using him as an example, just as I did with Coran and the others.

 

Unless you mean only a Charisma of 14, a Wisdom of 12 (but less than 14) Elven, Bard, Rep <16, should only and ever be able to just _talk_ to him then I don't understand your point.

As you well know, the vast majority of my suggestions were nothing like that restrictive, and they were certainly not without precedent (such as Sir Ryan Trawl being only for Paladins and Elhan being only for Elves). And if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that I recommended easing some of the existing restrictions, like those for Hendak and Elhan. I am not some tightass, elitist Nazi, nor do I believe that any of you genuinely relish the thought of a sweaty night with Guildmistress Busya while living vicariously through the eyes of some hideously deformed man with psoraisis and a lisp. All I'm asking, all I have ever asked, is that the characters behave in a manner consistent with their social status and (likely) personal preferences. At least Kulyok seems to understand my point.

 

Why on earth do you care if people feel guilty? I just can't feel guilty for playing my game the way I want.

To be honest, I'm not sure I have a rebuttal for this. Maybe it's the part of me that wants to look at the larger picture: When playing your own game on your own computer at home, it's perfectly fine to have the game centered directly on "Me, me, me." But would this attitude really fly in Multiplayer? How about in a P&P game with friends? When people too inured to playing this way start playing online, especially competetive games like Quake and whatnot, they quickly turn into world-class jerks, the kind of people who get bad road rage. Now, I can't claim that I started this thread out of concern for the psychological welfare of the world gaming community, but maybe that's an important part of what makes a powergamer. Thank you for giving me (us?) something to think about.

 

 

BTW, I think the comparison with a combat mod full of characters with AC 20 and no weapons is a little off target. A combat mod is intended for an entirely different purpose than Romantic Encounters and is designed in an entirely different way.

analogy, noun. A similiarity between things that are otherwise dissimilar, or a comparison that highlights such a similarity. "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get."

 

 

We didn't spend hours/days/weeks of our lives writing encounters just so somebody could come along and say they were ridiculous.

And, happily, nobody has. I have repeatedly said that the mod is a great idea, and that I think only one small aspect of it is ridiculous: The aspect that makes the protagonist's race and gender be the only criteria of whether or not a character will be interested in them.

 

 

I don't remember anybody telling me to rewrite Gavin with different romance requirements . . . . it's always possible even 6oS might revise a few of those opinions. Anyway, this kind of thing is up to the modder.

Emphasis mine. I said that they were suggestions, every time. I am hardly incorrigibly stubborn, I do change my mind when I'm presented with convincing arguments: Kulyok herself persuaded me that my massive rework of Sarevok's Diary belonged in the BG1 NPC mod instead of Unfinished Business. And I have always said that the original modder has the final word on their content (unless they hand it off to somebody else or abandon it entirely, I suppose).

 

 

I do think that those who think there should be no restrictions should put their money where their mouth is. NO restrictions at all. Not even race or gender.

This is a point which I considered initially. And if I have time I might amend what I wrote so that a male!PC could attempt an appeal to Logan (or the future NPC that I am considering) on initially equal footing. Characterization being what it is, success isn't assured. . . . I believe restrictions already exist, only they aren't marked with "WIS18 only" in the readme. . . . So all the required/boosted charisma in the world won't save you if you act like an ass. . . . I had a female!PC that would have liked to go for a walk (or asked at least) with Busya even if she ultimately shot her down.

That, actually, sounds remarkably close to perfect. All CHARNAMEs can at least ask, but the encounter will be broken off if they say the wrong thing, or don't have the CHA to get away with saying the wrong thing, or don't have the INT/WIS to think of the right thing to say, or they simply can't get past a certain point if their race/gender doesn't match with the character's preferences. Very realistic, and still quite playable for everybody. Very nice.

[Immortality]

For anyone who really DOES want to roleplay... they can refer to the Readme and decide only to approach or initiate dialogues with the people who would 'suit' the whole situation around their character. Just because the option's there, doesn't mean your character need take it after all

 

Oh yes, standing ovation for this one.

 

As far as I am a fan of "no restrictions", I also roleplay a lot. I simply dont start any NPC if I think my PC's morals/ideology/whatever wouldn't allow it.

 

I imagine that making a no restriction encounter is easier than making it with it.

 

However, id the modders want to do such thing,I strongly encourage them to please release a component that deactivates the restrictions (like a happy patch for RE )

 

In any case please consider the amount of petitions for one way or the other and *cough* draw your conclusions.

 

 

@6oS, you might not have come here to be shouted down, but neither did we. We didn't spend hours/days/weeks of our lives writing encounters just so somebody could come along and say they were ridiculous.

 

I'm surprised you may take offense at this, berelinde.

You have 1928310923810923 (more or less) people telling you your mod ROCKS, but one comment from someone who hasn't even played is enough to put you down?

 

How much praise you need to get convinced that the mod is really cool as it is! We can't please anyone, and everyone has their own opinions, but don't let those opinions put you down. You have much more fans than detractors, right?

 

So there again: YOUR MOD ROCKS, YEAH!

 

Problem solved--turns out that "guest" was Pat, a guy at my work I'd been talking to about this.

 

Wow, that was original, I was expecting "it was my brother"... Got me there...