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What is the general opinion of Improved Anvil?


Guest Guest_dizzyorange_*

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Not for nothing, but I played it. After doing a few quests and spending hours on reloads to get through a few battles, I decided that it just wasn't worth it. I don't want to spend two or more hours on a 10 minute combat sequence. So it isn't for me. No big deal. I won't install it again.

 

Originally, I did like IA. Back in an earlier version. Maybe version 2? Anyway, it was a lot of fun. The challenges were real, you had to think, but you didn't have to reload 50 times and hope to get lucky. I could generally get through stuff in only a couple tries, and I remember feeling really proud of myself when I got through an encounter first try. I was even helping out with some compatibility testing. But gradually, somewhere around version 3, the changes started becoming more dramatic, the compatibilities with my favorite mods started dwindling, and what had once been a pleasant challenge was turning into a chore. I downloaded and tried to play IA v 4.2. The lag made the game darned near unplayable. But I persevered through a few encounters and realized that the things that made IA fun for me were gone whereas everything I didn't like about it was amplified. Regenerating enemies with resistences/immunities is only the beginning. I will not install v 4.3.

 

As for the opinions stated in this thread, they might not praise IA, but they are civil. And they are the opinions of someone who has tried the mod.

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Just for your information, Guest_dizzyorange_*, most of the people who told their "opinion" about IA here have never played or even tried it. Just ask who of them actually played it. They will be proud that they didn't. But then how can they give advice?

 

Well I did try it. It just wasn't my cup of tea. I like my cheese with crackers thank you very much.

 

But there is nothing to worry about. Those who post tactless, offensive or malicious posts are mostly "empty" people.

 

I really want to say something nasty about this but I'll follow CamDawg's advice.

 

::Deep breath:: :)

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Guest Guest_Raven_*
I'd suggest that you use the upcoming Sword Coast Strategems II for BG2 by DavidW. Similar to his SCS for BG1, it promises to have enemies react in a more intelligent manner, utilizing the resources they have been given in a way that is consistent with what they are and how intelligent they are. They don't cheat, and it promises to have a larger variety of attacks and methods, so using the exact same strategy every fight won't help you too much.

The trouble is that if they don't 'cheat' they will likely not be a challenge to an experienced BG2 player. The fact that enemies 'cheat' as you say in tactical mods like IA and Tactics is because otherwise they would be too easy. It's not solely the creators of the mods being lazy and using immunities, resistances, regeneration etc. to make up for the lack of better scripting - IMO even the best scripting is no match for the intelligence of a skilled human player. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

Plus as was mentioned before, improved and more detailed scripting means more conditions being checked by the enemy - leading to slowdown for older PC's.

 

One of the problems with mods like Tactics and IA, is that certain spell protection combonations have been recognized to be very powerful, and as a result virtually every enemy spellcaster you run into uses the exact same combo.

To be fair though, if such a powerful combination existed, it stands to reason that any intelligent enemy would use it. And in IA, there are two main different defensive strategies mages employ - one involving SI:Divination and the other SI:Abjuration. Both require different approaches to deal with.

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The limit is different for everyone. The border between "cheat" and acceptable feature. A justification can usually be found.

 

I like these games because there are special enemies. Many people refer to "role-playing", when saying that a mod is rather "powergaming" mod than RPing. Well, in a role-playing world, it's exactly possible that main villains can be very experienced who had serious adventures in the past. During these adventures, they could gain special abilities and resistances, which most others don't have.

 

If you say "powergaming", I say you're "stats gaming". Checking CRE files shouldn't be preferred over the actual experience in-game. Stats are just a model. IMHO only the gaming experience counts. But I know there are those who don't agree with me. It's OK.

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Specifically, does it interrupt the "atmosphere" and ambiance of the core game? I've never played SoA and ToB all the way through before, so I'm really looking forward to see how the story concludes. At the same time, I admit that the core game is a little easy. Improved Anvil seems to offer improved AI and more challenging battles, but from reading through the new items list, also seems to be "out of BG2 character", so to speak.

 

The best thing about the game is not the items or being uber-powerful, but about the character development and plot. For anyone who's tried IA, does it ruin this aspect?

I've played through the first part of the current version of IA (currently on hold because of uni), and yeah, it definitely changes the atmosphere (I'd argue in a good way). Rather than being the uber-powerful demi god you are in the vanilla game, the mod changes the dynamics of it to produce a decidedly more uncertain and dangerous place. Some powerful enemies (ie shadow lord, Torgal etc) are a bit too difficult for a lvl 8 party and need to be left for. That doesn't stop you from trying however, and I must attest that finally defeating what you first believe to be an impossible battle is immensely satisfying. If you pick your battles wisely and use one of the suggested quest paths, you should be quite able to keep reloads to a minimum (not to say that you won't reload, just not more than every 1/2 - 1hr). For me one of the best experiences I have had with BGII was the improved Planar Sphere - there were probably 4 or 5 fights that I had to fight tooth and nail to win but in the end I managed to beat it without a reload.

I suppose the short answer is yes- it changes the atmosphere of the game greatly in that it makes it more dangerous. The story is not changed however, and all of the added quests fit in seamlessly (no cheesy dialogue). A greater proportion of your time will be spent fighting (or pausing and strategising in the middle of fights) and thus the story may feel more overshadowed, however I would never recommend the mod to someone who has not played the game several times already. I can fully accept that people will dislike the changes (which are in all respects fairly significant) and the mod compatibilities can get a bit tedious (I'd advise you use a tried or suggested install order, and ask about any uncertainties).

 

Note than many popular strategies are outright hamstrung (enemies cannot be shut in rooms, individuals cannot be lured out of a group one by one), mages are far less effective than in the vanilla game (where they were pretty overpowered) but by no means useless (they will play a very integral role in every battle, even if the kill% doesn't show it...also mages tend to be the last ones standing in enemy parties) and some enemies have very high resistances (this can be frustrating at first, but i suppose it is very difficult making golems more challenging using other methods). Mages are tougher in that they all come pre-buffed (they instantly cast half a dozen protection spells as soon as you get in sight), but they do not use force-spells or illegal contingencies (or if they do I haven't noticed). Many people dislike the mod for these (perfectly acceptable) reasons, as a whole I personally think it all comes together to work very nicely and it has really invigorated the whole BG experience for me.

 

Can anyone suggest anything else to increase difficulty without breaking the atmosphere of the game?

As said before Rogue Rebalancing is pretty awesome -there is a particularly excellent fight in chapter 6 that I reckon is in some ways better than many of the IA fights (in that you adversaries are highly comparable to what the player could reasonable achieve and there are no resistances or hidden abilities). Having said that you do get some pretty awesome items from it which would shift the balance of the game were they given out too many times (or more than once)

 

PS: I wasn't AstroTurfed! (honest). I've had an account on SP for a few years now, so (hopefully) that's proof enough.

Also I hope the above was unbiased enough, apologies if it isn't.

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Does it actually matter how much fanbase a mod has? There will still be people that play it even if it is disliked by a large amount of players.

 

 

I have played Improved Anvil version 2 a year ago and I have enjoyed it very much. there were a few tactical challenges which were quite fun to complete and the item recipes were refreshingly different from those provided by Item Upgrade at weidu.org.

 

I'm going to play version 4.3 when it comes out to see whether the new tactical contents and upgraded AI scripts provide me with a nice challenge. As I see it, one can only perceive IA as a total conversion mod, because the modding on it has been fully integrated towards its own balance.

 

I think the only way you can truly see whether you like it is to make a backup of the normal install and install IA. Then play a little while into the game and see whether you like the change in the battles, items and challenges. Then decide for your own if you want to play it till the end.

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It's just different strokes for different folks. IA is very niche, and personally, I love IA. But, I can very easily see why others would not share this opinion.

 

Bickering and cutting hairs about a recreational thing designed to bring about fun is silly imo. Regardless, there is such as thing as free speech and people can say whatever they want. Well... in the US at least...

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Guest Guest_dizzyorange_*

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start any hostilities, but there were some really helpful descriptions of IA in this thread. I've decided to put off IA for now, until I finish the game at least. To increase difficulty, I'm going to to solo with a wild mage with abysmally weak stats.

 

SimDing0, questpack is awesome!

 

I'm really interested in Sword Coast Strategems 2. Is there an anticipated release date?

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Thanks a lot for the replies everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start any hostilities,
Bit late for that now :)

 

 

I've decided to put off IA for now, until I finish the game at least.
Sensible decision!

 

 

IA is an awesome mod (my own opinion, obviously :) ), but...

 

It is a very large mod that is heavily tactics orientated. If the important part of the game for you is all about storyline and interaction with NPCs, then IA is probably not for you. If you find that the story (though great) gets a bit repetitive after the fifth run through, with no challenge to hold it together anymore; then IA is worth a shot.

 

It is hard. It is not as hard as Imp Ilyich, but it is probably harder (and more total) than the rest of Tactics. You will not be able to blaze through the quests in your usual order. A lot will have to be left until you return from Spellhold or later. You will need to re-load. Whether you have to reload every five minutes (boring) or every hour (acceptable IMO for the challenge), is up to your approach to the game and your tactical ability.

 

It is not about cheese. IA is one of the least cheesy games I've played - because you (the player and most likely person to use cheese) can't! A lot of what is seen as cheese is simply the only way of working round game limitations to stop PCs cheating/cheesing.

 

It is an enormous mod. It is so big that it doesn't need any other mods. It is also designed to be a 'total' conversion - all the different parts work together to create the mod. The introduction of any other mod runs a very real risk of upsetting the gameplay balance and thereby ruining a significant part of the intent of the mod. It is also the least buggy mod I have played - and this is put in jeopardy by other mods. (I'm not criticising other mods here, I'm simply saying that 2 mods together are more likely to be buggy that if they were played individually).

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Well, let's put a good foot forward and say the answer had been made, pro and con, and leave it alone, then. I think we have got a pretty clear indication of what is attractive about the mod, and to what playstyle; folks can draw their own conclusions on the relative weight of suggestions.

No hostilites from a systematic perspective to report - there is no organized for-or-against forums or mods from a G3 side of things, and really no competition between modding communities over this mod or its relative merits - just some folks have strong opinions either way and have vented 'em here. No worries.

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Part of that might just be because folks are visiting here to weigh in on the issue. And there's nothing wrong with that! Hey, if folks visit G3 because they want to weigh in on a hot topic, I've no objection, because they might want to check out some other mods while they're here! :)

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Personally I have never played Improved Anvil because I'd rather go for a milder AI enhancing that would not force me to many reloads, but said that, my impression is that some people's point was to recklessly attack a fellow BG community, their moderation, their productions and use the Topic for their own propaganda...

 

And this just makes me sad.

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Coming late to this discussion... hope this isn't too off-topic but I think Raven raised some interesting points about how tactical mods can work. Maybe Cam can move it if it's better elsewhere.

 

The trouble is that if they don't 'cheat' they will likely not be a challenge to an experienced BG2 player. The fact that enemies 'cheat' as you say in tactical mods like IA and Tactics is because otherwise they would be too easy. It's not solely the creators of the mods being lazy and using immunities, resistances, regeneration etc. to make up for the lack of better scripting - IMO even the best scripting is no match for the intelligence of a skilled human player. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

(Raven's "they" is referring to my SCS, but I think the comments go over to any tactical mod).

 

I think there are basically four ways mods can make battles harder:

 

1) smarter AI - mostly this means better scripting, but you might stretch it to "ooh, maybe I should spend some of my money on those cheaply available Potions of Hill Giant Strength that Ribald sells", or "I'm an 18th level wizard, maybe I should memorise some 1st level spells".

 

2) what generally gets called "cheese", though I'm not using the term disparagingly: that is, changing the in-game laws of physics, usually but not always in a way that benefits the enemies but not the player. Examples include: making creatures immune to some particular effect (traps / Horrid Wilting / Timestop / whatever); allowing mages to Force-Cast spells and so be uninterruptable; protections being undispellable; resistance to various attack forms (slashing/piercing/acid/whatever). This is most clearly defined when the enemies are human or demihuman character-class types: we know the rules for them, so we know when the enemy are breaking them. (To be fair, the player has occasional unique abilities you can't chalk up to his class and equipment, but they don't have a dramatic effect usually).

 

3) pre-casting: slamming up lots of defensive spells as soon as the battle begins, to simulate pre-battle preparation. I've separated this off because it's controversial whether it counts as (1) or (2).

 

4) more / higher level opponents. That 12th level wizard becomes a 17th level wizard; those six assassins become eight assassins; that priest gets a Wand of the Heavens.

 

If you look at how the original game handles difficulty, you see:

 

1) its AI is staggeringly stupid. Obviously there's no way that the best-scripted BG enemy is going to be remotely as intelligent as a human player: partly because of limitations of the scripting language and the game engine, mostly because we (i.e., humans generally) aren't even remotely close to understanding the brain well enough to simulate even rudimentary aspects of its functioning. But even given this, the vanilla game is very stupid indeed. (e.g.: a creature fails to use very powerful items it's carrying; a mage kills himself with his own fireball; another mage perennially doesn't cast spells at all just because his nearest enemy is improved-invisible. This gets successively better through the trilogy but it's pretty lousy even at the end.

 

(that's not a criticism of the game qua game - obviously the designers could have done way better with unlimited time and money.)

 

2) it makes light use of cheese in BG1 and SoA, shading into pretty heavy use of cheese in much of ToB (Sendai's ultrafast casting, pretty-much-everyone's 50% immunity to magic damage - etc, etc.)

 

3) it makes almost no use of pre-casting in BG1, a bit of use in SoA, quite a bit in ToB. (This is a bit indeterminate: it often calls its pre-casting "Spell Trigger" / "Contingency", but then breaks the rules for those powers. I guess you can call that cheese or pre-casting.

 

4) It makes huge use of opponents who, on paper, are much higher level than the PC. This is worth stressing: it's the main way the vanilla game offers a challenge. If BG was a pen-and-paper game, the party would be annihilated - they routinely fight enemies 3-4 levels higher than them.

 

So: you can make the game harder by improving on any of these. (1) has built-in limits (scripts can only get so smart); the others (well, (2) and (4) anyway) can be done as much as you like.

 

(Can you make the game harder without smarter AI or cheese? Absolutely. Raise Tarnesh (the mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn) to 25th level. Give him the vanilla BG2 script by all means; I still reckon you'll be reloading...)

 

I'll break here for readability.

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