Witcher... here we go again.

[vile fairy]

Do you see yourself as a hero from your actions? When you killed without need, when you slay people begging you for mercy, when you laughed at goody characters and enforced merciless and heartless conversation choices, when you attempted to join in the forces with the Ancient Evil and slay a bunch of companions who cared about you once.

 

 

Actually, I found the evil conversation options in NWN2 to be the very stereotype of evil character = a troll throwing a temper tantrum. Whether the protagonist happened to have high intelligence/wisdom/charisma, or was lawful evil, didn't seem to matter.

Why would anyone expect an obviously evil cleric of a despised and evil deity to save them? Maybe because even if you take those chaotic evil options, you still save the villagers, city citizens, keep inhabitants along the way.

And if you choose the evil ending, they die anyway.

 

In PS:T, by comparison, it actually mattered whether the Nameless One had high mental abilities, and his alignment was created in response to his actions. Which made the roleplaying choices meaningful, and the protagonist interesting.

[Miss Sakaki]

If I'm playing a game with a pre-written character they have to grip me quickly, otherwise it'll get boring and I won't be interested enough in the character to want to play as them.

 

A couple of the games that I've enjoyed playing recently, Psychonauts and Fahrenheit (aka The Indigo Prophecy), both have pre-written characters. Raz, Carla and Lukas are very strong, idiosyncratic characters so I found it easier to get into, and the plot was strong enough at the start that I wasn't unwilling to play as a character that I couldn't customise.

 

But they're adventure games that started out on the console (I played them on my PC) so there's much more of a precedent for the pre-written character mould. In the CRPG genre, it's rarer to find a protagonist that is interesting enough for me to want to play with - and I can say that from the stuff on the developers' site Geralt didn't grip me as a character, but who knows? I'll probably end up playing it at some point. I liked what Black Isle did with PS:T's protagonist, but it's obviously not to everyone's taste.

[yarpen]

Link to gameplay video. This game is a true cRPG. Not in character creation, but making choices and dialogues - as I think. :-)

[Miss Sakaki]

I read a review from PC Gamer and I very much liked the sound of the choices/consequences stuff. I hope it won't suffer because of bad translation, though.

[yarpen]

Yup. It's REALLY hard to translate text from polish to english. :/ And I don't know why voices sounds like a non-native speakers.

[Simbul]

I'm female and I like PS:T. Actually, I prefer pregenerated characters. I'm tired of games that allow me to choose eye colour, hairstyle and cup size, but offer no real character development in return. I prefer a PC with great dialogue and personality. He (or she) doesn't have to be amiable in the sense of friendly, smart and pretty for me to like him, he could also be a total asshole if it's well written. I don't care about the PC in BG at all, but only about the NPCs, because they have a story to tell, while the Bhaalspawn is just lifeless to me.

Seconded.

 

As for NWN2, I've finally got to play it now... (the first time I quit after gotting to Neverwinter, the beginning of the game being so horribly boring). Nearing the end of chapter 2 now, and I see some hope in the game. It's definitely much better than the first NWN (now THAT was a hack'n'slash, all the way, no character interaction/development or funny & interesting quests), and better than both KOTORs, though still a long way from masterpieces such as Torment. There are some interesting companions (sadly, not developed enough, I see some potential in most of their stories and personalities), and such dialogues as the trial are definitely not bad. Although I'm quite disturbed as for how the game handles alignment system. In many cases, dialogue alignment-changing options were too...straightforward and simple. Didn't like that at all.

 

About the Witcher, I've read the books (while reading them I thought them interesting, but now I don't really know my opinion on them), and I think that the best way to make a game based on some film or book is *not* giving the protagonist role to any of the heroes of the story. I didn't really care for Geralt in the books (although for me it would be fun to play as Yennifer, another character) and knowing some of his personality and choices he made in the books would make it actually *impossible* to roleplay the game. It's very different from Nameless One, imho. The latter provided much more freedom of choice than a well-known and well-though out character.

[Miss Sakaki]

Yup. It's REALLY hard to translate text from polish to english. :/ And I don't know why voices sounds like a non-native speakers.

 

I'm sorry, I honestly didn't mean to be patronising. I'll make sure I research properly next time. *scurries away*

[Guest!]

I won't play PS:T (unless Domi decides to have another go with her nameless female, but I don't encourage her to discontinue her other projects to do it!).

 

It still wouldn't be "customizable". Why would you bother playing it?

 

But I don't mind the prospect of playing BG1 Tutu, BG2, IWD2 (with IWD2 NPC only) or IWD (if IWD Tutu is ever released and somebody decides to do NPCs for that) forever, as long as folks keep writing mods..

 

All games in which character customization has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the game.

 

I prefer having the ability to chose my sex, hair color, stats, etc when it comes to character creation. I don't like predetermined, premade characters. One thing I didn't like about PST is the character. Hey my name is the Nameless One and I can only be a male. How lame.

 

Really. After all, all Torment offered was a throng of significant roleplaying choices, the best dialogue written for a RPG, a cliche-free story and setting and the broadest character development in a videogame. But, heck, you can't choose your hair color! How lame!

On a sidenote: you actually can choose your stats, and your name isn't "Nameless One": the protagonist, but not the player, discovers his real name in the end.

 

This isn't about customization (since when does it revolve around gender choice, which is largely inconsequential in just about every RPG under the sun, anyway?) , it's about people getting pissed off because the protagonist of a videogame isn't their gender.

[berelinde]

Collectible cards after every conquest isn't exactly my idea of quality role-playing.

 

But you're not talking about Witcher here, but PS:T.

 

I may never have started a PS:T game and played of my own volition, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen it played. BF tried to get me to play, and I watched a good deal of it over his shoulder, but I just couldn't get into it. I disliked the way the player was told his thoughts during the course of dialogue.

 

The notion that I am somehow annoyed that the gender of the PC doesn't match mine doesn't hold water. Most of the times that I have actually finished BG2, it was playing a male PC. The idea that I haven't a choice in the matter *is* annoying.

 

In vanilla BG, player choices don't have much affect, no, but some mods add more roleplaying opportunities, as well as consequences for certain role-playing decisions. See the above list.

[Salk]

Really. After all, all Torment offered was a throng of significant roleplaying choices, the best dialogue written for a RPG, a cliche-free story and setting and the broadest character development in a videogame. But, heck, you can't choose your hair color! How lame!

On a sidenote: you actually can choose your stats, and your name isn't "Nameless One": the protagonist, but not the player, discovers his real name in the end.

 

This isn't about customization (since when does it revolve around gender choice, which is largely inconsequential in just about every RPG under the sun, anyway?) , it's about people getting pissed off because the protagonist of a videogame isn't their gender.

 

Holy words...

[Domi]

Really. After all, all Torment offered was a throng of significant roleplaying choices, the best dialogue written for a RPG, a cliche-free story and setting and the broadest character development in a videogame.

 

All of these statements are highly subjective.

 

The setting was not of their creation, and with all due respect an amnesiac character who don't remember his past is a huge cliche utilized in every soap opera, and in the equal degree all girls in love with the protagonist is a cliche out of cliches as well. A 'deal with a devil' sort of a plot is a well-used plot device as well.

 

PS:T did nothing new whatsoever in providing the options for particular stats and alignments. It's in every Infinity game, in every Bio game ever since.

 

The only thing PS:T did differently, it's that it included the huge amounts of texts that described the inner workings of the protagonist, which is not broader, but narrower character development in my books, because it takes away the player's abilitry to determine for him/herself what her character thinks, how she feels, what she means by saying this and that.

 

So... I am sorry, but your claim about PS:T being something very, very special just doesn't hold water.

 

I think JE is the best game ever made from the character development prespective at this point, simply because it is so full of choices, and that it has an interesting and meaningful way of combining the stats for conversational choices purposes. And because it has an array of well-written characters. Because it takes advantage of adult situations. You may disagree with me on this particular point, and keep championing PS:T or Witcher or Final Fantasy or any other game with the fixed protagonist.

 

But I know what I know, the most successful games from my prespective are the ones that allow a level of customization for the protagonist and lets the player to breath in soul into his or hers character.

 

Do I think that the swelling of the D&D rulesystem is strangling the all-race-gender-class encompasing games as BG? Yes, I do. But for me, the only restriction that should never be there is that on the gender of the protagonist for me to play the story.

[Salk]

But I know what I know, the most successful games from my prespective are the ones that allow a level of customization for the protagonist and lets the player to breath in soul into his or hers character.

 

Do I think that the swelling of the D&D rulesystem is strangling the all-race-gender-class encompasing games as BG? Yes, I do. But for me, the only restriction that should never be there is that on the gender of the protagonist for me to play the story.

 

I believe that each has right to his/her own "for me" and "from my perspective"...

[Guest Guest]

Do I think that the swelling of the D&D rulesystem is strangling the all-race-gender-class encompasing games as BG? Yes, I do. But for me, the only restriction that should never be there is that on the gender of the protagonist for me to play the story.

I don't understand what effect the gender has on a person's personality whatsoever.

[Evaine Dian]

(That was me. Dang it.)

[Guest!]

Collectible cards after every conquest isn't exactly my idea of quality role-playing.

 

But you're not talking about Witcher here, but PS:T.

 

I may never have started a PS:T game and played of my own volition, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen it played. BF tried to get me to play, and I watched a good deal of it over his shoulder, but I just couldn't get into it. I disliked the way the player was told his thoughts during the course of dialogue.

 

The notion that I am somehow annoyed that the gender of the PC doesn't match mine doesn't hold water. Most of the times that I have actually finished BG2, it was playing a male PC. The idea that I haven't a choice in the matter *is* annoying.

 

In vanilla BG, player choices don't have much affect, no, but some mods add more roleplaying opportunities, as well as consequences for certain role-playing decisions. See the above list.

Collectible cards isn't my idea of quality roleplaying either. I'm not really aching for another game aimed at a pubescent audience. On the bright side, there are no Khajiit romances for furries - yet.

The notion that you are annoyed that the gender of the PC doesn't match yours comes from your statement that you'd play Torment if it had a female protagonist and the emphasis on the possibility of selecting the gender of your character.

Regarding other IE games, as much as I love them and as much as I routinely install banter packs, flirt packs and stuff, that hardly shifts the focus of the gameplay: they're 95% combat, they're built around combat and a fairly linear structure that doesn't allow for going off track. I'm not sure it's possible to turn that kind of game into something RP-heavy, a là Fallout or Torment, but even if it were it would require a titanic amount of work... and the game just doesn't lend itself to the task.

 

Really. After all, all Torment offered was a throng of significant roleplaying choices, the best dialogue written for a RPG, a cliche-free story and setting and the broadest character development in a videogame.

 

All of these statements are highly subjective.

 

The setting was not of their creation, and with all due respect an amnesiac character who don't remember his past is a huge cliche utilized in every soap opera, and in the equal degree all girls in love with the protagonist is a cliche out of cliches as well. A 'deal with a devil' sort of a plot is a well-used plot device as well.

 

PS:T did nothing new whatsoever in providing the options for particular stats and alignments. It's in every Infinity game, in every Bio game ever since.

 

The only thing PS:T did differently, it's that it included the huge amounts of texts that described the inner workings of the protagonist, which is not broader, but narrower character development in my books, because it takes away the player's abilitry to determine for him/herself what her character thinks, how she feels, what she means by saying this and that.

 

So... I am sorry, but your claim about PS:T being something very, very special just doesn't hold water.

 

Torment (which wasn't developed by Bioware, by the way) did everything different from your run of the mill RPG.

There was almost no combat, for starters, except in the later part of the game, and then it was just trash filler. The game revolved around dialogue, moral choices, and atmosphere, not hacking orcs. That alone places it in another league entirely from other RPGs.

Second, your alignment was determined step by step by each choice you made and answer you gave during the game. In "every Bio game ever since" you just choose your alignment and are done with it. Not that what you choose matters anyway, because you only have the Good option and the Chaotic Greedy option, and both involve slashing your way through a dungeon and reporting back for some fat loot. In Torment, everything that could be done, could be done in different ways, resulting in a differently shaped character.

Third, stats actually mattered (and not to determine how much damage you did with a warhammer, for once). Playing a character with high wisdom was very different than playing a charismatic or an intelligent character. Every kind of character discovered different bits and pieces of his own story. And the story was the whole game.

Fourth, the text didn't describe the inner workings of the Nameless One, it gave the player the ability to decide the feelings of the character by presenting a slew of options. Often you had a dozen possible answers to something, couples of which were identical, except that one was the truth and the other was a lie. Nothing similar in any other RPG I've played.

Fifth, the NPCs. A floating skull stolen from the nether planes, a tiefling, a sensate lawful succubus priestess, a coerced githzerai, a mage who's a living portal to the elemental plane of fire, a rogue modron, an empty armor animated by the will of the mercykiller who inhabited it. NPCs who mattered more for their personality than their role as combatants. Sounds like anything you played recently?

Sixth, as for the cliches Torment purposedly turned on their head, I suggest you read it in Avellone's words here. The amnesia thing was the only concession to conventional plot hooks (only one girl fell for the protagonist and there was no deal with the devil, by the way).

 

So, Torment was definitely something very, very special. It wasn't for everyone's taste, but it surely had precious little in common with other RPGs (which is why I loved it).

 

I think JE is the best game ever made from the character development prespective at this point, simply because it is so full of choices, and that it has an interesting and meaningful way of combining the stats for conversational choices purposes. And because it has an array of well-written characters. Because it takes advantage of adult situations. You may disagree with me on this particular point, and keep championing PS:T or Witcher or Final Fantasy or any other game with the fixed protagonist.

If JE stands for Jade Empire, I haven't played it, so I can't comment on it. I stopped playing Bioware stuff after the NWN trainwreck.

I don't "champion" Torment because it had a fixed charachter: I couldn't care less whether the character is fixed or not, what I care about is originality and depth. Final Fantasy, and JRPGs in general (silly plots + paper thin characters + crappy combat mechanics), are on the lowest end of my scale.

 

 

Hmm... maybe I've gone a bit too much off topic.