Opinions: Turnabout vs. Longer Road

[vagrant_winds]

I've been meaning to play both of these mods, but have yet to for one reason or the other. I've browsed a few of the dialog files for both and like the ideas, but am unsure of the implementation. To me however, they feel conceptually incompatible and I would only install one or the other.

 

Thus, I feel it's best to ask the 'neutral' modding forum what they consider the pros and cons of both in storyline, believability, implementation, and the like.

 

On the face, I would like to give Yoshimo a second chance. But I'd also relish the neutral and evil role playing possibilities with Jonny trying to squirm out of whatever servitude he falls under.

[Domi]

Those actually two mods, that I'd have tried if I could face ToB again. I actually even started the Longer Road and played it for a bit; it was impressive in its execution. Form what I've heard about Turnabout it only changes the last battle sequence, so if I had to chose one or another, I'd pick the Longer Road because it adds lots of challenging and controversial content to the whole of the boring ToB.

[Caedwyr]

I don't believe you have to pick one or the other. They both add additional content to the final battle, but I don't think that either are coded in a way that prevents other mods from making changes as well.

[vagrant_winds]

I don't believe you have to pick one or the other. They both add additional content to the final battle, but I don't think that either are coded in a way that prevents other mods from making changes as well.

 

I mean conceptually, not mechanically.

 

Primarily, I feel like the protagonist only has the power to fully revive one person in the throne of Baal (any more would cheapen the dramatic effect) and if both are installed it becomes the possibility of two. Secondarily, they don't react to one another from what I read of compatibility posts which deters from the realism.

 

It's about tough choices and role playing, not the game itself.

[Kulyok]

Then you'll have to install neither, I'm afraid, since Sarevok's resurrection is forced on the player.

[jcompton]

Primarily, I feel like the protagonist only has the power to fully revive one person in the throne of Baal (any more would cheapen the dramatic effect) and if both are installed it becomes the possibility of two.

 

By time you reach Turnabout content, it's probably a bit too late to be worried about cheapening dramatic effect.

 

Secondarily, they don't react to one another from what I read of compatibility posts which deters from the realism.

 

Yes, that's true. Turnabout has no opinion about whether or not Irenicus gets a demonic promotion and company car.

[vagrant_winds]

Then you'll have to install neither, I'm afraid, since Sarevok's resurrection is forced on the player.

 

Touche'. I didn't think of that. Maybe I'll try both out after all.

 

By time you reach Turnabout content, it's probably a bit too late to be worried about cheapening dramatic effect.

 

Too much of a good thing is still too much? Is this a jibe against ToB, Ascension, or LR?

 

Yes, that's true. Turnabout has no opinion about whether or not Irenicus gets a demonic promotion and company car.

 

Okay, I admit that got a laugh out of me.

 

...

 

P.S. How's The Broken Hourglass coming? I'd very much like to play it as soon as it comes out.

P.S.S. No ToB content for Keto makes her sing dirges. She's hands down my favorite NPC for BG2 (Xan being a somewhat close second).

[jcompton]

By time you reach Turnabout content, it's probably a bit too late to be worried about cheapening dramatic effect.

 

Too much of a good thing is still too much? Is this a jibe against ToB, Ascension, or LR?

 

All three, now that I think about it.

 

P.S. How's The Broken Hourglass coming? I'd very much like to play it as soon as it comes out.

 

Chugging along surprisingly well now, apart from all the things that either don't work or aren't implemented yet (at which point we'll discover they don't work.)

 

P.S.S. No ToB content for Keto makes her sing dirges. She's hands down my favorite NPC for BG2 (Xan being a somewhat close second).

 

I understand. I do wonder if part of Keto's enduring appeal isn't in part due to us (unintentionally) leaving people wanting more, though.

[vagrant_winds]

All three, now that I think about it.

 

Care to elaborate about LR? Is the plot device of brining back a villain in servitude under you something you don't like? Is there something you don't like the the writing? I don't want to force an answer if you don't want to elaborate, but professional opinions mean something (good or bad).

 

Chugging along surprisingly well now, apart from all the things that either don't work or aren't implemented yet (at which point we'll discover they don't work.)

 

Tell Westley Weimer to code his engine better?

 

I do have to say though... some of the mechanics just make me say things like "Finally!", "Wow, this makes sense.", and "Thank you.".

 

Particularly... armor giving damage reduction and not avoidance, limited resource polls for spell casting and magic item commitment (similar to White Wolf's Exalted mote poll), the point buy system for stats/skills (like Hero System or GURPS), spell customization, and the lack of traditional fantasy races.

 

Hurray for something DIFFERENT!

 

I understand. I do wonder if part of Keto's enduring appeal isn't in part due to us (unintentionally) leaving people wanting more, though.

 

I can think of a few reasons.

 

1. She's a normal Human! Elves, elves, elves, more elves, chose of Tyr, and Tieflings can all be good... but enough is enough. Keto is an NPC that becomes special not through birthright, but through characterization and action.

 

2. Immense role-playing choices for the Protagonist themselves. In all the banters and dialog that takes place between Keto and the player, there is the illusion of choice and I could characterize the personality of my character through them.

 

3. Her quest(s) had more outcomes than a single pass or fail, which was subjective to the player.

 

4. She's a 'non-combatant' in personality. It's refreshing to have a sane party member in the group when the "Chaotic Greedy" ones feel like challenging a Dragon, so to speak.

 

5. She's not overpowered. She doesn't 'steal the show'. She has faults of personality and characterization.

 

6. She's an f-ing Bard! Jasper St. Baird told us to love Bards! (Well, with rogue Rebalancing installed anyways so they're not underpowered.)

 

To be far though, as a player, I feel Xan and Kivan are right up there in quality, with Kelsey and Saerileth not that far behind. If my opinion means anything that is.

[jcompton]

Care to elaborate about LR? Is the plot device of brining back a villain in servitude under you something you don't like? Is there something you don't like the the writing? I don't want to force an answer if you don't want to elaborate, but professional opinions mean something (good or bad).

 

I feel like at this point I should hire John Turturro to play the role of Jason Compton in these mod content debates. He could probably do a more convincing job than me after all these years...

 

I'll try to condense to a couple of key points.

 

1. TOB already digs up far too much "Hey, remember this guy?" content as it is. It already features the two-games-ago villain brought back for a farewell tour (who, let's not forget, they had already dredged up for a cameo in SOA!) Why exacerbate the problem by also including the previous game's villain? (We'll get to Turnabout contributing to this problem in a minute, don't worry...)

 

2. Of course, the primary conceit of the mod is that the previous game's villain wasn't really Irenicus at all, but rather was Ellesime. I will go further than that. I think a reasonable case could be made that the entire raison d'etre of the mod is to act as an extended delivery vehicle for the epilogue with the positively gleeful description of Ellesime's ashes drifting down the river. Regardless, the mod requires granting a lot of conclusions about SOA's character motivations which I find dubious.

 

As for Turnabout making the problem worse, the answer is, well, yeah, it certainly does. I personally am not a big fan of Ascension, the "big-boss rehash" is a tired formula and I don't think it added much to the TOB endgame. But given that it is/was a very popular part of people's TOB play experience, I thought it would be an interesting project to give the PC privileges similar to those Melissan gets in Ascension. I think we did a good job, all things considered, but it's hardly the first instance of my work I would push as "canon-worthy."

 

Tell Westley Weimer to code his engine better?

 

Are you kidding? I'm lucky he speaks to me at all by now. Besides, many of the problems stem from us trying to do things we've been ordered not to do.

 

I do have to say though... some of the mechanics just make me say things like "Finally!", "Wow, this makes sense.", and "Thank you.".

 

Most of the credit for the rules is due to Wes, my primary contribution was to sit back and veto things or push for a few conveniences. But I agree, the system is an interesting change of pace.

 

1. She's a normal Human! Elves, elves, elves, more elves, chose of Tyr, and Tieflings can all be good... but enough is enough.

 

Interestingly, I've seen some complaints lately that there are now too many human NPCs.

 

3. Her quest(s) had more outcomes than a single pass or fail, which was subjective to the player.

 

Bons really did a knockout job designing the bard contest, there's no question about that. I can't get enough of Keto's "losing" performance.

[Simbul]

Interestingly, I've seen some complaints lately that there are now too many human NPCs.

Ahem, sorry if I'm interrupting, but I think it is *right* if there are more human NPCs than any other race (but are there? somebody recently counted that elves comprise the majority of romances for female character). After all, in Sword Coast/Amn human population by far exceeds any other race, and humans, as a rule, much easier lend themselves to adventure.

And there are far too many elves and tieflings, I agree. This just makes these races less "special" than they deserve to be, imho.

[vagrant_winds]

Thanks for the detailed response J. Compton. Though it far from derails the desire to play the mods... I want to see this controversy myself in game and form my own opinion.

 

I do agree about the whole "enemy returns" bit being cheesy... it doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.

 

Interestingly, I've seen some complaints lately that there are now too many human NPCs.

 

Well, what the BG2 community needs is one of two things (or both in one):

 

1. A male-romanceable NPC with ToB content other than (Flirt Pack enchanced) Bioware, Saerileth, or (Remixed) Tashia.

 

2. More Halfling and/or Half-Elf NPCs.

 

Seeing that my "coding" skill is at zero and my "writing" skill is unknown, I'm not personally helping the problem... but I can whine and moan like everyone else!

[Domi]

2. More Halfling and/or Half-Elf NPCs.

 

I don't see many dwarves, gnomes, half-orcs etc either. (Shrug) I dunno, I think people just do the characters they like, not the ones that are 'missing'. The absence of half-elves always surprised me, though. However, humans are nice oin that they can dual-class....

[vagrant_winds]

2. More Halfling and/or Half-Elf NPCs.

 

I don't see many dwarves, gnomes, half-orcs etc either. (Shrug) I dunno, I think people just do the characters they like, not the ones that are 'missing'. The absence of half-elves always surprised me, though. However, humans are nice oin that they can dual-class....

 

Point noted. It's the Half-elves I personally miss the most though.

 

And yeah, Dual Classing is borderline overpowered.

 

Fighter lvl7 [1.5 attacks] --> Anything

Fighter lvl13 [2 attacks] --> Anything

Ranger lvl? --> Cleric