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DavidW

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On Strontium Dog's point, it seems to me there are two ways of dealing with the BGTutu/2 spell issue:

 

1/ Something which SCS has already implemented, which is to have an option to remove BG2 spells from BGTutu [this however is partly reversed by one of the options in the Tweak Pack, which IIRC introduces a few BG2-only spells of below level 5 into certain points in the game]. It also (unless David can correct me) does not solve the issue where Sorcerers can select Stoneskin as a level 4 spell in BGTutu, a spell which enemy mages do not have (indeed PC mages cannot get hold of the scroll in Tutu, even with the relevant Tweak Pack component).

 

2/ Introduce fully implemented BG2 spells up to and including level 5 into BGTutu [presumably there are no enemy mages in BG1 whose level is so high that they would have level 6+ spells].

 

The trouble with 2 is that the game would alter hugely, and the balance of encounters would be skewed. For example, the encounter with Drasus & co at the Cloakwood Mines is one of the most challenging battles in SCS as it stands. How much more difficult would it be if the two mages there cast stoneskin on top of everything else? I am also unconvinced that PC mages are underpowered in BG1 or Tutu. Shield, Blur and Mirror Image all provide fairly decent protections, and once you get Cloudkill later in the game, many fights (other than some key boss battles) become trivial since all your enemies simply die. Playing a solo mage through Tutu was pretty easy [not, I hasten to add, as easy as a fighter/thief or archer, who IMHO are the most powerful classes in Tutu].

 

Anyway, apologies for further thread derailment. Perhaps this discussion belongs on the SCS1 board (or indeed on the Tutu board at PPG).

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Guest Splunge

First off, as I said in another thread - great mod!

 

Content-wise, I'm about 3/4 of the way through Ch. 2, and I've got nothing major to complain about so far.

 

One minor thing (and I apologise if this has been mentioned before) - I installed the Move Boo to Minsc's Pack component. I also have UB installed, and after The Kidnapping of Boo quest is done, Boo gets placed in a quick slot again. Re-installing the component doesn't solve this (although I didn't actually re-install it in v4 where the "problem" happened - I just installed it when I moved to v5)

 

Like I said, it's a minor point, and a rather picky one at that, given that a natural extension of my "complaint" is that you should be checking every single component of every other mod to make sure that they "play nice" with SCS II, which is of course rather unreasonable.

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On Strontium Dog's point, it seems to me there are two ways of dealing with the BGTutu/2 spell issue:

 

1/ Something which SCS has already implemented, which is to have an option to remove BG2 spells from BGTutu [this however is partly reversed by one of the options in the Tweak Pack, which IIRC introduces a few BG2-only spells of below level 5 into certain points in the game]. It also (unless David can correct me) does not solve the issue where Sorcerers can select Stoneskin as a level 4 spell in BGTutu, a spell which enemy mages do not have (indeed PC mages cannot get hold of the scroll in Tutu, even with the relevant Tweak Pack component).

 

2/ Introduce fully implemented BG2 spells up to and including level 5 into BGTutu [presumably there are no enemy mages in BG1 whose level is so high that they would have level 6+ spells].

 

The trouble with 2 is that the game would alter hugely, and the balance of encounters would be skewed. For example, the encounter with Drasus & co at the Cloakwood Mines is one of the most challenging battles in SCS as it stands. How much more difficult would it be if the two mages there cast stoneskin on top of everything else? I am also unconvinced that PC mages are underpowered in BG1 or Tutu. Shield, Blur and Mirror Image all provide fairly decent protections, and once you get Cloudkill later in the game, many fights (other than some key boss battles) become trivial since all your enemies simply die. Playing a solo mage through Tutu was pretty easy [not, I hasten to add, as easy as a fighter/thief or archer, who IMHO are the most powerful classes in Tutu].

 

I would say that a fighter/wild-mage/thief would be the most powerful PC-combination available! (That's what I always use for my main PC, with the help of shadowkeeper! But I've played with just vanilla single-classed PCs(with a 6-member-strong party) and Davaeorn and all the other hostile mages were all too easy for me, even so. BG2 mages have always been very powerful, with the help of ai-mods like tactics, but BG1 mages have always been a doddle to overcome.

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Ok, having just completed Spellhold, I noticed a few other things.

 

Losing all your items in the Spellhold maze while you have a familiar has some interesting results. The extra HP stays and you don't lose a point of Constitution, but the familiar is gone for good and you can't summon a new one. You can fix it by creating another familiar inventory item, but the familiar may be something that the protagonist should get to retain all the way through Spellhold.

 

Also, I noticed that my potion case (from TweakPack) didn't survive either, nor did the potions inside or the ammunition in my Ammo belt, but as I understood it, that's because I have TweakPack installed after SCSII and if it were installed before, they would. Correct?

 

Additionally, it would make sense if you were bereft of your equipment when you are first taken in by Spellhold (either when Irenicus bags you (after having fought Perth the Adept) or when you are committed (after having had words with the Pirate Lord), rather than when you are placed in the Spellhold maze by Bodhi.

 

Lastly; Irenicus. You may want to nerf the Spellhold one a bit, or maybe scale him to level or something. As soon as you start chapter 4, you have no choice but to (eventually) fight Irenicus. While it's indeed exciting to have 20d8 horrid wiltings, Dragon's Breaths and whatnot cast at you while you're barely over level 10, it could very possibly result in a situation where your game's essentially broken beyond repair. You can't survive more than 2 or 3 rounds against Irenicus, nor go and do something else in order to level up and get better equipment.

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Lastly; Irenicus. You may want to nerf the Spellhold one a bit, or maybe scale him to level or something. As soon as you start chapter 4, you have no choice but to (eventually) fight Irenicus. While it's indeed exciting to have 20d8 horrid wiltings, Dragon's Breaths and whatnot cast at you while you're barely over level 10, it could very possibly result in a situation where your game's essentially broken beyond repair. You can't survive more than 2 or 3 rounds against Irenicus, nor go and do something else in order to level up and get better equipment.

 

When I last played through BG2, I'd also had The Darkest Day installed. If you do all the Darkest Day quests that can be done before Spellhold plus all the usual quests, you more or less end up with 18th level PCs by the time you reach Spellhold Island so I usualy finish off Irenicus within a couple of rounds. Of course, you may have had the Xp-reducing component of Zyraen's Miscellany installed, which would explain the reference to level 10.

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When I last played through BG2, I'd also had The Darkest Day installed. If you do all the Darkest Day quests that can be done before Spellhold plus all the usual quests, you more or less end up with 18th level PCs by the time you reach Spellhold Island so I usualy finish off Irenicus within a couple of rounds. Of course, you may have had the Xp-reducing component of Zyraen's Miscellany installed, which would explain the reference to level 10.

 

I guess that's one way to fight him at level 10, but a much easier way is to go there as soon as you've scrounged up 15k gold, which you've basically done after taking three steps outside Irenicus' dungeon.

 

Reason I mentioned it is because David has made similar efforts in other parts of SCSII, presumably to avoid situations like the one outlined above.

 

For example;

Increase difficulty of level-dependent monster groupings

 

...

 

The only exception to the general rule is the "spawn-undead" script, whose highest-level setting causes liches to spawn. SCS II liches are so much more powerful than vanilla ones that it is nearly suicidal to take them on at lower levels (at least without cheesy tactics), so even on the "almost-maximum difficulty" setting they don't spawn unless you have at least 1 million XP. If you really, really want a massively-hard-to-injure undead archmage dumping Pit Fiends and Horrid Wiltings on you at 8th level, install the fourth option, "maximum difficulty".

 

Another potential solution (should one be desired), would be to have Irenicus focus on the inmates and then teleport off (eg. because you are beneath his notice), or possibly have him simply teleport off instead of fighting you.

A potential issue with this would be that his leaving dialogue might not make sense ("Why do I fight here when my plans can be laid elsewhere? Have your victory here etc etc").

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I don't actually have a problem with this: if you install the bit of SCSII that means SoA mages get high-level abilities, you deserve all you get :blush: (As the readme notes, it's included mostly for completeness.)

True, but I would say the issue is not so much about HLAs, as it's one about balance (something HLAs admittedly skew further) . I could be mistaken of course, but as I recall, it was not unreasonable to go to Spellhold right out of Irenicus' dungeon in vanilla BG2. Since the Irenicus fight is necessary in order to progress and you can't go back, making it harder would effectively mean you need to do more of chapter 2 in order to avoid getting stuck in chapter 3. There's nothing inherently wrong in this and it could be argued that responsibility rests upon the player in this matter. I just thought I'd mention it :suspect:

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I don't actually have a problem with this: if you install the bit of SCSII that means SoA mages get high-level abilities, you deserve all you get :blush: (As the readme notes, it's included mostly for completeness.)

True, but I would say the issue is not so much about HLAs, as it's one about balance (something HLAs admittedly skew further) . I could be mistaken of course, but as I recall, it was not unreasonable to go to Spellhold right out of Irenicus' dungeon in vanilla BG2. Since the Irenicus fight is necessary in order to progress and you can't go back, making it harder would effectively mean you need to do more of chapter 2 in order to avoid getting stuck in chapter 3. There's nothing inherently wrong in this and it could be argued that responsibility rests upon the player in this matter. I just thought I'd mention it :suspect:

 

I take the point - on the other hand, although Irenicus in spellhold is a 30th level wizard, he actually has relatively few offensive spells - one power word kill, one or two Wiltings, a Chaos. And your mage allies (notably Wanev with his timestop) cause nontrivial problems to him. I think he's takeable by a low-level party, albeit with a bit of effort. I'm less sure that's true if that Power Word gets swapped for Dragon's Breath or Summon Planetar.

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I don't actually have a problem with this: if you install the bit of SCSII that means SoA mages get high-level abilities, you deserve all you get :blush: (As the readme notes, it's included mostly for completeness.)

True, but I would say the issue is not so much about HLAs, as it's one about balance (something HLAs admittedly skew further) . I could be mistaken of course, but as I recall, it was not unreasonable to go to Spellhold right out of Irenicus' dungeon in vanilla BG2. Since the Irenicus fight is necessary in order to progress and you can't go back, making it harder would effectively mean you need to do more of chapter 2 in order to avoid getting stuck in chapter 3. There's nothing inherently wrong in this and it could be argued that responsibility rests upon the player in this matter. I just thought I'd mention it :suspect:

 

I take the point - on the other hand, although Irenicus in spellhold is a 30th level wizard, he actually has relatively few offensive spells - one power word kill, one or two Wiltings, a Chaos. And your mage allies (notably Wanev with his timestop) cause nontrivial problems to him. I think he's takeable by a low-level party, albeit with a bit of effort. I'm less sure that's true if that Power Word gets swapped for Dragon's Breath or Summon Planetar.

 

Oh. In that case you are probably right.

 

Another thing now that you mention it. Dadreel didn't seem to put up any combat protections any of the times I went through that battle (he got killed by Irenicus' Mordenkainen's Sword several times while he still had a healthy amount of spell protections up). I'm afraid I didn't keep too close a watch on them for the most part (they all seemed to die awfully quick, however) so I can continue to keep an eye open for odd protection schemes if you'd rather have something more substantial.

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Another thing now that you mention it. Dadreel didn't seem to put up any combat protections any of the times I went through that battle (he got killed by Irenicus' Mordenkainen's Sword several times while he still had a healthy amount of spell protections up). I'm afraid I didn't keep too close a watch on them for the most part (they all seemed to die awfully quick, however) so I can continue to keep an eye open for odd protection schemes if you'd rather have something more substantial.

 

Please do! - although actually the mad wizards are a bit of a special case, since my scripts aren't really designed for fighting enemies.

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Please do! - although actually the mad wizards are a bit of a special case, since my scripts aren't really designed for fighting enemies.

 

Re the support from the patients at the insane asylum:- It really is about time that they are given a fair chance to survive in combat(ie not 0% or 100% chance of survival). I think that there is a Tiax mod which allows Tiax to survive and possibly become a party-member, but that's about it.

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Please do! - although actually the mad wizards are a bit of a special case, since my scripts aren't really designed for fighting enemies.

 

Re the support from the patients at the insane asylum:- It really is about time that they are given a fair chance to survive in combat(ie not 0% or 100% chance of survival). I think that there is a Tiax mod which allows Tiax to survive and possibly become a party-member, but that's about it.

 

Outside the scope of SCSII, I fear.

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I think that there is a Tiax mod which allows Tiax to survive and possibly become a party-member, but that's about it.

Tiax dies in this battle, but Cyric resurrects him :suspect:

It's a One-Day (but cool) NPC mod

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