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[Guest Guest]

Caedwyr, if magic missile actually interrupted them I wouldn't have had any problem; that's why the prebuffing was an issue. The slaver mages are coming in prebuffed with invisibility, mirror image, stoneskin, and minor globes of invulnerability. About my only spell options would be ice storm, cone of cold, and I guess sunfire; none of these are really great choices in the situation. Ranged weapons with elemental damage have a chance of working, but not a particularly good one. Have I missed something obvious?

 

As for spreading out, the encounter that got me posting made this almost impossible. The party starts clumped and surrounded on three sides by enemies, with terrain blocking most of the open direction. This is peculiar to that encounter, though.

 

And yeah, it is about party composition and timing. I was trying to do Nalia's keep right at the beginning, so I've only got the NPCs you meet in Irenicus' dungeon or the Copper Coronet, and no potions to speak of. What makes things even harder is that I'm using Auren Aseph; Anomen would be a bit better since he can cast CC and might even make his own save.

 

I'm also getting really annoyed with not finding a Secret Word spell anywhere. Makes me really regret that I let Nalia learn Pierce Magic rather than hold onto the scroll.

[Wisp]

As for spreading out, the encounter that got me posting made this almost impossible. The party starts clumped and surrounded on three sides by enemies, with terrain blocking most of the open direction. This is peculiar to that encounter, though.

 

And yeah, it is about party composition and timing. I was trying to do Nalia's keep right at the beginning, so I've only got the NPCs you meet in Irenicus' dungeon or the Copper Coronet, and no potions to speak of. What makes things even harder is that I'm using Auren Aseph; Anomen would be a bit better since he can cast CC and might even make his own save.

 

I'm also getting really annoyed with not finding a Secret Word spell anywhere. Makes me really regret that I let Nalia learn Pierce Magic rather than hold onto the scroll.

Retreat and regroup a bit to the north east.

I'm guessing this is about Suna Seni (wielder of Arbane's sword) and her friends? That's a fight scheduled to occur early on regardless of where you go. Unless I'm mistaken, it's meant to be the first time you get ambushed.

 

Secret Word can be found in the Adventure Mart, but it's useless against anyone running Globe of Invulnerability, and I think, against Liches and Rakshasa.

[Littiz]

Hi!

I'm trying the mod for the first time (back to the game after a LONG, LONG break).

I'm very positively impressed, so far.

I've always hated how mages looked stupid and totally uncaple of mastering their art, in the past.

 

So far I have only a few issues with the mod.

First, I'm not much fond of the changes made to the spells (I grew affection for the old mechanism). But I won't argue that much, here, it's a basic design decision after all, and I installed them anyway since you state that the scripts assume to work with those changes.

 

Second, well, I too am having a hard time with the random encounters.

The point is, they can get you in an extremely untimely way, you cannot skip them by selecting other quests, and tend to become a tad frustrating.

See, if you have a small party (or soloing) and/or have a dualled, not reactivated character, it's easy to run immediately out of options when facing these guys (even if you accept to cheese with prebuffing and such)

Especially since mage-types cannot cast in the open.

I reckon many low level parties can have the right combination of skills to deal with them, but hey, mine ATM definitely isn't (I have Jaheira, Yoshimo and myself, fighter mage with the fighter class not yet reactivated).

I know, I could use more help, but how can I get it if I can't travel between city blocks?

 

Anyway, great work, I repeat. I'm eager to face a smarter Lich

And oh, a special "good to see you again" to Caedwyr!

Long time, uh?

[Ilyich]

Littiz: - Don't the Random Encounters appear in their own standalone areas where casting is allowed regardless of whether you've bribed the Cowled Wizards or not? I know the "You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself" ones are.

[Splunge]

Also, for me, random encounters only occur at night. So you can metagame a bit and rest until daytime to avoid the battles.

 

But if you're talking about the "between area" encounters, I think they can happen any time.

[Caedwyr]

Melf's Minature Meteors works wonders as it does both physical and fire damage which bypasses stoneskin. In cases where I am unprepared for the random encounters I'll also just run away. It might be nice though to offer a optional system during install by which the level of the enemies increases as the chapter number increases.

 

@Littiz: Long time no see. Good to see you've been bitten by the BG2 bug again.

[Guest Guest]

I hope DavidW does reconsider and makes some changes to these random encounters. I'm sure some changes could be made without ruining his 'vision'.

 

Remember, it's not only experienced players that want to use SCS/SCS II, and getting creamed at the start of the game by a random encounter isn't much fun.

[DavidW]

Well, as I've said I'm happy to provide people with the option to turn off prebuffing. In general, though, my hands are a bit tied here: it's a basic design principle of SCSII that it makes the existing enemies as smart as possible (and then improves enemies further if increased AI doesn't make enough of a challenge). I don't want to get into the game of weakening vanilla opponents to compensate for making them brighter.

 

(As it happens, I also think that the early random encounters are quite a good learning experience: it's a good chance to get the hang of fighting mages and clerics. But I'm sure that works out differently for different people.)

[SirLancelot]

Well, as I've said I'm happy to provide people with the option to turn off prebuffing. In general, though, my hands are a bit tied here: it's a basic design principle of SCSII that it makes the existing enemies as smart as possible (and then improves enemies further if increased AI doesn't make enough of a challenge). I don't want to get into the game of weakening vanilla opponents to compensate for making them brighter.

 

(As it happens, I also think that the early random encounters are quite a good learning experience: it's a good chance to get the hang of fighting mages and clerics. But I'm sure that works out differently for different people.)

 

I agree. Besides, you are in a difficult position, since you are trying to satisfy both the hardcore tactical players and the more occasional ones.

[coaster]

I tend to try to fight through the Suna Seni encounter (for the sword) & the Renfield encounter (for the Harper quest), for the rest I just run away until I'm a higher level. Nothing wrong with *ahem* tactical withdrawal

[viperdan]

Well, as I've said I'm happy to provide people with the option to turn off prebuffing. In general, though, my hands are a bit tied here: it's a basic design principle of SCSII that it makes the existing enemies as smart as possible (and then improves enemies further if increased AI doesn't make enough of a challenge). I don't want to get into the game of weakening vanilla opponents to compensate for making them brighter.

 

(As it happens, I also think that the early random encounters are quite a good learning experience: it's a good chance to get the hang of fighting mages and clerics. But I'm sure that works out differently for different people.)

 

I agree as well.I love thinking and fighting my way thru difficult battles.The feeling i get when i finally win.ahhhh.......wonderful!

[Guest Guest]

So you are relying on preexisting knowledge to get you through the encounters, coaster? I just don't think it's right that in the early stages of the game you should have to run away from a random encounter (after obviously having reloaded it several times before realizing that it's too difficult).

 

And I'm not entirely sure how getting repeatedly beaten/having to run away equates to a good chance to get the hang of fighting mages and clerics. Plus if it's a basic design principle of SCSII that it makes the existing enemies as smart as possible, to the extent that these early random encounters are too hard, then maybe the design principles of SCSII should be reconsidered.

 

That's just my opinion, and I appreciate that it's the opinion of the mod author that's all that matters. But I do have to ask: would SCSII be any worse a mod if these encounters were toned down without the need for a console command?

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Since you are working on fine tuning things for v6, here are a few nitpicks from my last playthrough. (note: this was with SCSII v4).

 

I don't particularly like how opponents immediately start casting divination spells whenever an invisible party member enters their line of sight. Granted, this behavior was already present in the original game to an extent, but I always found it a bit unrealistic. IMO, if an invisible character has a decent Move Silently score, or has been magically silenced, he should be able to move past opponents without raising their attention. Here's an example of how I handle this in RR:

 

IF
!GlobalTimerNotExpired("RR#Cast","LOCALS")
!See([GOODCUTOFF])
Detect([GOODCUTOFF])
CheckStatLT(LastSeenBy(Myself),30,STEALTH) // Move Silently
!StateCheck(LastSeenBy(Myself),STATE_SILENCED)
HaveSpell(CLERIC_TRUE_SIGHT)
CheckStat(Myself,0,TRUE_SIGHT)
CheckStatLT(Myself,50,SPELLFAILUREPRIEST)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
	SetGlobalTimer("RR#Cast","LOCALS",6)
	Spell(Myself,CLERIC_TRUE_SIGHT)
END

 

The difficulty of the Move Silently check varies with the opponent's class and level i.e. Thieves and Bards will naturally have an easier time with detecting footsteps due to their Detect Noise affinity (as per PnP rules). Furthermore, high level opponents with a lot of combat experience have a better chance to realize that an invisible foe is nearby so they require a higher Move Silently check as well. If it's not too much trouble, would you consider implementing something similar in the next version of SCSII?

 

Another thing irked me was that most spellcasters precast long duration spells while they are still neutral (i.e. blue circle). Since precasting itself requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, I'd suggest limiting it to hostile characters (red circle). IMO, there's no need for Ribald or the various priests in the Temple District to prebuff unless they are attacked. Furthermore, some characters which start out as neutral and turn hostile at a later point (most notably Mae'Var, The Mercenaries of Riatvin and Mencar Pebblecrusher's gang) will completely waste their precast sequence as even long duration spells expire after a period of 24 hours.

 

P.S.

 

Other than those two nitpicks, I love SCSII, and I'm planning to continue my run (currently in Spellhold) once v6 comes out. Cheers!

[coaster]

So you are relying on preexisting knowledge to get you through the encounters, coaster?

 

I just don't think it's right that in the early stages of the game you should have to run away from a random encounter

 

I see where you are coming from but I think I will have to respectfully disagree. There are many encounters in the early game that you try, fail at, then return to when you are stronger.

 

The Renfield encounter I think is pretty easy (IIRC), I managed to wipe them out with a fairly low level solo assassin. I think this is a special case because a whole quest line depends on it, and I would agree it should not be too difficult to complete for that reason (although even here, I think you can actually talk to Renfield, pick him up and run away without taking on the enemies). The Suna Seni encounter was harder (mainly because of the mage), but it's a judgement call - try to kill the gang (and you will be rewarded with a nifty, but unessential, short sword), or run away. All the other encounters, I believe, are random with non-unique items/quests and it is your decision to try and fight, or run. Much the same way as in the original Baldur's Gate, your inept level 1 character would be waylaid by 8 bow-firing bandits, and if you didn't leg it, you would be dead. At level 8, I'd turn them into mush and chop off their scalps.

 

These kind of decisions run through the whole game - I can cast spells in public in chapter 2 and try to take on the Cowled Wizards - or not. I can complete the Windspear Hills in chapter 2 and try to take on Firkraag, or come back when I am level 20. And so on. I personally view the random encounters in this sort of vein.

[DavidW]

@Avenger_RR:

 

I like the detect-invisible idea. There's no realistic chance I'll get around to doing it for v6, but I'll bear it in mind for the summer. (Incidentally, it's not automatic at the moment - it's about a 25% chance per round, from memory).

 

Prebuffing: maybe you're right. I guess in a sense I don't treat long-term spells as "prebuffing" - in those cases it really is realistic that the spells are there all along. Would you be happy if I cut the animation or is it their presence at all that's a problem? (Stoneskin is a particular nuisance because of the colour, I grant.)

 

@guest:

 

Since this is becoming a reasonably vehement disagreement, let me say again that I really don't mind this kind of feedback; it's useful, in fact.

 

... but ultimately, while I can easily change aspects of the mod that don't meet its goals, changing its goals is a different matter. SCS II, like SCS, set out to take the existing game and play its existing opponents in a genuinely intelligent (but non-cheating) way. (And then, as an additional goal, to further increment the difficulty in situations where higher intelligence still didn't prevent boring battles.) I really, really don't want to get onto the slippery slope of changing the whole game into something I prefer. There are mods that do that (Improved Anvil is the obvious example) and it's fine if that's what you want - but I want the existing BG2, just with people behaving intelligently.

 

Would SCS2 be a worse mod if it had different design principles? Doubtless not. It wouldn't be a worse mod if it stopped being a tactical/AI mod and instead introduced a kuo-toa NPC with a romance for female gnomes and halflings. It's just that's not the mod I'm writing.

 

Having said that, if these "design principles" made something insanely difficult, or insanely implausible, then I'd rethink. But that's a high bar, and I'm still unconvinced it applies here. For what it's worth, on my own playthrough of SCSII so far, I took them fine (after one reload when I was caught off-guard). The party was Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie, Nalia, Anomen and an Undead Hunter; they took casualties, as I recall, but they won.