Of Simulacrums, Projected Images and their exploits

[BigRob]

One thing I've just thought of is that Vhailor's Helm casts Simulacrum. Since it's a helmet it was probably designed for fighter-type classes (maybe clerics?). Any Simulacrum of a fighter is a bit useless with no weapons or armour. I guess this suggests developer intent in that Simulacrum does have items.

 

Indeed. I know if Simulacrums came without any equipment I wouldn't be casting them as much.

 

 

And that's where this issue gets tricky for me. A Projected Image is an supposed to be an illusion of the caster, so it should be able to use all of the powers and items available to the original caster, since if they're not there, it's not much of a replication of the caster. Even if there's artifacts involved, you're not actually duplicating them, as the effects are just illusory and affect opponents because they think the Image is real.

 

I can see the case for the removal of Turn Undead (undead are suposed to be immune to most illusions, notwithstanding the debate on whether the deity would grant it to a Simulacrum/Image) and thief skills, though maybe not stealth as the caster could get the illusion to try to hide. I think Simulacrums would know how to use thief skills, however. They can cast spells after all, and use weapons with the same proficiency as the original.

[Fyorl]

A Projected Image is an supposed to be an illusion of the caster

Exactly, not an illusion of the caster's equipment, just the caster himself. It's a matter of interpretation. I interpret those words to mean an illusion of the caster's physical form, not what he's wearing as well. I would say that ultimately, the caster chooses what the projected image looks like. Presumably they can't change that it looks like them but I would imagine they'd be able to project whatever clothing or items they wanted on the image - otherwise there'd just be loads of naked projected images running around. Projected Images can't attack anyway so their weapons are useless.

 

I think the original question was whether or not they should be able to use item abilities. I would vote no as, although I agree with you in that opponents would be harmed by the illusion's attacks due to believing in them, the actual item's effects wouldn't be real and so in order to make it look as though the item had been activated the caster would have to create some further illusions which I would say requires another spell.

[Rabain]

Just out of curiousity is the duplicate Ring of the Ram exploit as attained by Fyorl (mentioned above) also closed out?

 

Sorry Fyorl.

[Daulmakan]

Just out of curiousity is the duplicate Ring of the Ram exploit as attained by Fyorl (mentioned above) also closed out?

Yes. From the Core Fixes Documentation:

 

Party Can Acquire Multiple Rings of the Ram from Tolgerias

 

Tolgerias can be exploited to obtain multiple Rings of the Ram. If his ring is pickpocketed, it's still given to the party as a reward if the party turns over Valygar's body for a reward or if he is killed in the course of obtaining the planar sphere. If the ring is pickpocketed from Tolgerias, he will not have another one.

 

Files altered: tolger.dlg, tolger.bcs

[Fyorl]

It's ok... I'll have to find another method to killing Kangaxx

[Guest temujin]

Both spells look fine to me. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

In the unmodded game, the spell description for Simulacrum says:

 

"It has all the spells and abilities that the caster would have at that level." - I would take "all abilities" to mean all item and special abilities. Makes perfect sense. So I don't see why a Simulacrum couldn't pickpocket / turn undead / or do whatever else the caster would normally do at that level. Hell, I even think it should be allowed to change to slayer, travel back to pocket plane, etc even though these exploits were closed, but thats another story.

 

As for Project Image, "This copy can move around, it has the same hit points and can cast the same spells however it cannot make any physical attacks." Again, the only restriction I see is that it cannot make any physical attacks. It doesn't mention anything about not being allowed to use abilities from items or other actions.

 

 

Now, if the devs wanted to prevent this from happening, I'm sure they could've made these two spells follow a similar principle as Mislead, where you can't use spells/items from your quick slot, or item abilities, or special abilities. And true enough, its spell description reinforces this: "The image cannot perform any actions at all such as attacking or casting spells." In fact, this is the only spell where a case could be made that it's an exploit - because of that enhanced bard song stacking, the image being able to find traps, etc.

[Fyorl]

I would agree that Simulacrums can use Turn Undead etc. but I think the term 'all abilities' refers to innate abilities rather than items since an item isn't an ability. Even so, I would vote that dev intent was that Simulacrums do have items (as explained by my Vhailor's Helm comment above).

 

As for Projected Image, although it doesn't say explicitly that you can't use item abilities or Turn Undead etc. it also doesn't say that you can. Since the Projected Image is an illusion, I can't see how the caster's deity is going to grant it the power to turn undead and I also can't see how an illusion can pick a lock. As for item abilities, you're right, comparing with Mislead it could indicate that dev intent was that item abilities can be used. But when you think that they also gave the Projected Image the ability to turn undead it indicates that they probably made a mistake.

[Guest temujin]

"Since the Projected Image is an illusion, I can't see how the caster's deity is going to grant...."

 

I just go by what it says in its spell description. If we used our imaginations, anything is possible.

 

 

"As for Projected Image, although it doesn't say explicitly that you can't use item abilities or Turn Undead etc. it also doesn't say that you can."

 

Again, if it couldn't, then it would've been simply stated in its description (similar to Mislead).

 

 

"but I think the term 'all abilities' refers to innate abilities rather than items since an item isn't an ability."

 

To me, all abilities = everything the caster is able to do. I don't see why it should be limited to just innate abilities.

[WizWom]

Well, let me chime in here, on the side of reason...

A project image's only idea in P&P is to allow the mage to interact without danger to himself - as long as his own location is secret.

SPWI703.SPL has the description:

When this spell is cast there is a illusionary copy made of the casting wizard which steps out of his body. This copy can move around, it has the same hit points and can cast the same spells however it cannot make any physical attacks. If the image is destroyed then the spell ends and the caster can move again. Also if during this time the caster takes any damage, the image will disappear and the caster can move around again. Otherwise the image will remain for the duration of the spell or until affected by a dispel magic or anything that dispels illusions such as True Sight.

So, the description specifically says this can cast spells - which is much more than the P&P version. Leave the Image with the items, since the caster can't use their items during this time. Any change to the P&P style should be in a P&P tweak component.

 

Simulacrum likewise... P&P, it should be a project to fashion the ice duplicate, with the spell and a wish required at the end to make it an actual duplicate capable of doing anything useful.

SPWI804.SPL, though

A duplicate of the caster is created when this spell is cast. The duplicate is almost identical to the caster, making the duplicate a very powerful ally. The simulacrum is created at 60% of the level at which the caster is currently on. It has all the spells and abilities that the caster would have at that level. It also has 60% of the hit points of the caster. The simulacrum is fully under the control of the caster.

A duplicate would include the weaponry and items, and the ability to use them. Very powerful indeed. Again, any change to P&P might be better to make it like a project familiar, and put in a P&P tweak pack.

 

Mislead, though...

When this spell is cast the wizard is affected with an Improved Invisibility spell and is teleported a few feet away from his original position. Meanwhile an exact image of the caster is created where he used to be with exactly the same hit points as the caster. The image cannot perform any actions at all such as attacking or casting spells. It can, however, move around and act as a decoy for the invisible mage. The image will remain under the control of the caster until it is reduced to 0 hit points, or until it is affected by a dispel magic or a spell that destroys illusions such as True Sight.

This definitely says no actions - so no weapons, no spell button, no bard song, no item abilities, no special abilities, nothing. Making it actually conform to the description would be a Fix.

[Daulmakan]

It's ok... I'll have to find another method to killing Kangaxx

You can always edit/comment out that fix in the .tp2 before installing.

 

Interesting strategy BTW. I usually go with the Protection From Undead scroll. Unfair, I know, but so is throwing around Imprisonments every 3 seconds.

[BigRob]

Projected Image is an illusion, I can't see how the caster's deity is going to grant it the power to turn undead and I also can't see how an illusion can pick a lock.

 

I concur here, Projected Images shouldn't be able to do anything that involves moving/affecting/messing with inanimate objects. This could well be a nightmare to code.

[Daulmakan]

I concur here, Projected Images shouldn't be able to do anything that involves moving/affecting/messing with inanimate objects. This could well be a nightmare to code.

A Simulacrum can cast 9th level spells but can't pick a lock? It can alter reality with a Wish but is unable to open a door?

[Demivrgvs]

My opinion:

 

- Project Image: the clone is just an illusion therefore it shouldn't be able hide, pick locks, attack, use items,... That can be easily obtained by disabling the corresponding buttons (it's not a nightmere to code). I also like how it works in 3.5 (spells casted by the image are "deleted" from the caster memorization) but i think it's not easily doable in BG.

 

- Simulacrum: it's more like a real clone and should be able to do everything the original caster is able to perform. Anyway i would disable the quickslots and the item abilties slot to prevent the well known cheesy exploits (this is surely a tweak rather than a fix).

[Fyorl]

I concur here, Projected Images shouldn't be able to do anything that involves moving/affecting/messing with inanimate objects. This could well be a nightmare to code.

A Simulacrum can cast 9th level spells but can't pick a lock? It can alter reality with a Wish but is unable to open a door?

He said 'Projected Images' e.g. the Project Image spell, not Simulacrum. Although with everyone talking about both of them at the same time, I can see how it could get confusing >_<

[BigRob]

Ah, yeah, that's what I meant. The Projected Image illusion of the caster shouldn't be allowed to do that, but the Simulacrum temporary physical version of the caster should be able to open doors and do all that stuff, it's got the know-how and the physical form to do it with.