Of Simulacrums, Projected Images and their exploits

[Guest Guest]

Is this a separate component I could decline to install? Indeed, I'm not too fond of this "fix".

[Caedwyr]

This hasn't been included, and if it is included it would be as an optional but cool component that you could choose to not install.

[Guest Guest]

ah, I tought this was the reason my silmalucrum couldn't use his restoraton scroll on the Skinner quest.

 

He used it, but It did not trigger the quest, but when my Pc used it, it worked.

 

I tought this was the cause.

[devSin]

The original script checks if a PC casts restoration on Raissa; the simulacrum won't be picked up by the trigger (we could change to [30] instead of [2] to alter this behavior) and won't trigger her "restored" dialogue.

 

The current simulacrum fix prevents only the simulacrum itself from being affected by the restoration effect (since its copying of the PC is implemented with a simple level drain effect); it can still cast either spell or use the restoration scroll on any other target (and the spell will work).

[CamDawg]

OK, so I'm looking at actually coding this up for v7. Remeber that this will be an OBC component, not part of the core. Let's see if I've followed the discussion:

 

Simulacrums

Everyone seems more or less OK with their implementation, save for whether the caster's equipment gets duplicated. Majority seems to favor dumping the equipment.

 

Projected Images

Discussion for PIs seems to be all over the place. Disable thieving abilities, disable spellcasting, remove innates, remove equipment, immunity to damage, no movement, no bard song, can not create further clones... it seems like this is the place where we need to really hammer out an agreement.

 

Misleads

Whatever restrictions are given to PIs, misleads get as well.

[devSin]

IIRC, Misleads are already hardcoded to lose all their interface buttons, so they can't do anything anyway.

 

Simulacrum and Project Image are fine IMO (the advantage of Simulacrum is that the caster isn't frozen during the action). Giving both immunity to Simulacrum and Project Image would be cool, though.

[DavidW]

OK, so I'm looking at actually coding this up for v7. Remeber that this will be an OBC component, not part of the core. Let's see if I've followed the discussion:

 

Simulacrums

Everyone seems more or less OK with their implementation, save for whether the caster's equipment gets duplicated. Majority seems to favor dumping the equipment.

 

Since I don't think I voted in the original discussion, let me speak for the minority here against dumping items. I'm against it because

 

(1) I don't see any evidence at all for it in the spell description. (The argument that it's described as a copy of the caster and doesn't mention equipment is fairly unconvincing: if that was really what the developers meant they'd have said "copy of the caster and his/her clothing".)

 

(2) It would be pretty obvious to the developers that simulacra could be used in melee: the fact that projected images are explicitly blocked from using melee attacks supports that.

 

(3) I find the example of Vhailor's Helm pretty decisive evidence of developer intent: it must have been very obvious to them that warrior-types would make use of the helm, but they didn't make any effort to block it.

 

I can see the case for blocking quick-access slots because it leads to obvious exploits that probably weren't developer-intended, but wiping all items seems unmotivated.

 

At the least, isn't there a case for making this a Tweakpack component, not an OBC component of the Fixpack? (After all, "OBC" suggests that we recommend its install - I had the impression it was for things that we thought kind of probably were bugs but couldn't prove).

 

(I should admit to a vested interest, incidentally: the component will break certain bits of SCS II.)

[Demivrgvs]

Simulacrums

Everyone seems more or less OK with their implementation, save for whether the caster's equipment gets duplicated. Majority seems to favor dumping the equipment.

For equipment you mean armor and weapons or quickslots items? The formers cannot be exploited and SCS II uses this feature on Gromnir with excellent results, while the latters are the only real cheesy factor of this spell.

Projected Images

Discussion for PIs seems to be all over the place. Disable thieving abilities, disable spellcasting, remove innates, remove equipment, immunity to damage, no movement, no bard song, can not create further clones... it seems like this is the place where we need to really hammer out an agreement.

I think most if not all of us agree with removing thieving abilities, no equipment (disabling quickslots is enough because the image can't attack anyway), no bard song, cannot create further clones, cannot turn undead.

- disabling spellcasting What do the clones do then?

- no movement an immobile caster with an immobile clone? What's the point?

- immunity to damage It would be as per PnP, but i don't think the AI will be able to handle it while PCs will surely find many ways to exploit the immunity

Misleads

Whatever restrictions are given to PIs, misleads get as well.

I think it would be cool a script that dispels the image if it goes too far from the caster.

 

Just to share my opinion.

 

P.S I second DavidW on everything he said.

[Kulyok]

At the least, isn't there a case for making this a Tweakpack component, not an OBC component of the Fixpack? (After all, "OBC" suggests that we recommend its install - I had the impression it was for things that we thought kind of probably were bugs but couldn't prove).

 

Ten times yes. Much less trouble and "hey, you know what they did in Fixpack v7?" finger-pointing.

 

(Besides, I pretty much see my bard and fighter/thief using Timestop through scrolls and Vhailor's Helm as developer intent, unless I see Gaider saying "Oh, noes!")

[aVENGER_(RR)]

As before, I'm undecided about Simulacrum since the BG2 implementation of the spell is quite different from the PnP variety. As I suggested earlier, for maximum compatibility with other mods, it might be best to simply disable the quickslot buttons here in order to prevent cheesy player initiated exploits (like the aforementioned infinite use of Protection from Magic scrolls) and keep the other aspects of the spell intact.

 

OTOH, since Project Image is explicitly described as an illusionary copy of the caster (which is further supported by gender = ILLUSIONARY) so I'd remove the quickslot items there as well and also block access to the thieving buttons since it's hard to imagine an insubstantial image disarming or setting a real trap. Since the image can speak (as evidenced by its ability to cast spells) I'll concede to Cam's reasoning and withdraw my previous suggestion to take away its Bard Song ability as well. Removing the image's equipment seems logical however, though I'd leave that up to debate since it might cause compatibility issues with tactical mods which use the spell. David can probably clarify this further since I don't use PI in RR.

 

As for Mislead, I'd definitively do something about the Bard Song stacking there, since I very much doubt that the designers intended for the player to have access to a choir of illusionary clones which can hang back and grant the party über stackable AC and damage bonuses.

 

 

BTW, I'd definitively prevent all clones from spawning other (secondary) clones since all second-generation clones gained in such a manner tend to behave buggy (i.e. secondary Project Images and Misleads can attack). devSin can probably explain the full extent of this bug much better.

[DavidW]

Removing the image's equipment seems logical however, though I'd leave that up to debate since it might cause compatibility issues with tactical mods which use the spell. David can probably clarify this further since I don't use PI in RR.

 

I don't know of any mod which will break if you remove ordinary equipment from a PI, but I worry a bit about removing undroppable items like the one that gives liches their immunity packages. (Though it has to be said, I've found enemy-cast PIs a bit unreliable about copying those items as it is.)

 

I'd also worry if it were to be implemented by script - as someone mentioned earlier, assigning scripts to images is a delicate business especially when multiple mods are trying to do it. I can make some constructive pro-compatibility suggestions if you do go down that road, but ideally I'd rather you didn't.

[Guest Truper]

CamDawg: as you yourself said earlier in the discussion, there's no evidence for developer intent regarding these spells, so I have to agree with those who are saying anything to be done about them belongs in Tweakpack, rather than Fixpack.

 

On the other hand, they are all involved in some of the most exasperating exploits in the game. I'd suggest focusing on the exploits, and what could/should be done to foreclose them.

 

Mislead

 

The exploit here is stackable Bard Song. The simplest solution is to make the song unstackable. I've no clue whether that could be done. Otherwise, making Bard Song sung by a Mislead Image into some illusionary song that does nothing is entirely justified.

 

Project Image

 

The exploit is duplication of abilites from items. Item buttons to be disabled.

 

Simulacrum.

 

The worst exploit is casting spells from scrolls without consuming the scroll. I don't suppose there is a way to consume the original, physical scroll if it is cast from a Simulacrum? Otherwise, I'd vote for disabling the quick-slots.

 

On a slighty related note, I've always thought Vailor's helm was left unfinished. It should have the following properties added: only usable by chaotic evil. Sets charisma to 3. Cursed. Immune to Remove Curse. I mean, just *look* at that thing

[devSin]

I don't know of any mod which will break if you remove ordinary equipment from a PI, but I worry a bit about removing undroppable items like the one that gives liches their immunity packages.

IIRC, undroppable items don't get transfered to images anyway?

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I'd also worry if it were to be implemented by script - as someone mentioned earlier, assigning scripts to images is a delicate business especially when multiple mods are trying to do it. I can make some constructive pro-compatibility suggestions if you do go down that road, but ideally I'd rather you didn't.

 

Nah, I'd much rather have a working SCS II (and Quest Pack, Tactics, Big Picture...etc.) than a fixed, but incompatible, Project Image. As I've said before, the heaviest exploits (illegal duplication of consumable items) can be avoided by simply disabling the appropriate inventory buttons, so it might be best to just leave it at that.

 

The simplest solution is to make the song unstackable. I've no clue whether that could be done.

 

This is technically possible (although slightly buggy) and I've done it in the past versions of RR. However, I was forced to roll back the change when people noticed that their Bard Songs were flickering on and off at semi random intervals. In short, the timing mode which is used for the Bard Songs doesn't allow a completely bugfree non-stacking implementation, so it might be best to simply disable the Bard Song effect directly on the Mislead clone by giving it a dummy song which does nothing. This can be easily accomplished by adding an effect which sets a non-functional bard song to MISLEAD.SPL.

[CamDawg]

CamDawg: as you yourself said earlier in the discussion, there's no evidence for developer intent regarding these spells, so I have to agree with those who are saying anything to be done about them belongs in Tweakpack, rather than Fixpack.

I know. I'm hoping to sucker someone else into including it into their mod--perhaps some type of mod that focuses on gambits, or one that seeks to alter the equilibrium between classes.