PotiusMori Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I have to say, by and large, female NPC's pretty much fall into a couple of distinct stereotypes. Oh, sure you get the odd capable, friendly, independant female, but for the most part, NPC's tend to fall into the 'prissy princess (possibly in distress)', 'sexy seductress' and 'innocent idealist'. Occassionally you get a mix of those. Like a sexy, idealistic princess. But for the most part, the major character traits seem to trip with one of those characters. BG2: Nalia was pretty close to princess, Viconia the seductress, Aeire the innocent. NWN: Sharwyn the seductress, Linu the idealist, and there were a couple of non-henchie NPC's that fit the princess idea. JE: Silk Fox was the seductress, Dawn Star was pretty idealistic, and martial arts doesn't really lend itself to those cautious of broken nails. There are, I feel, two other major character archetypes that commonly plague female NPC's (the barbarian and the rogue). So, if there's really not much of a range of female *NPC's*, over whom the writers have complete control, what hope do we women have of finding a realistic female PC, over whom the writers must place constraints that can't possibly apply to all character paths? I always found it harder to write for female characters, because stereotypes are *hard* to break. I mean, Minsc is popular, right? I can't possibly picture a *female* version of Minsc being popular. And a female version of Valygar? She'd get brushed off as being a cold bitch, or incapable of dealing with emotional problems. So maybe the reason there are fewer options for female gamers, or indeed, realistic representations of our obviously fairer (and even more obviously superior... heh heh) gender, is because the writers are scared nobody will be able to relate to them. Or worse, scared of offending any female audience because of what's been written. OR maybe they feel male gamers might be emasculated by a show of capable, realistic female characters? (Don't take that personally guys, it's jsut a supposition. Yes... Just a supposition...) Maybe they feel it's safer to try to force women out of the gaming scene? See: The Witcher. I'm not saying this is a viable solution, or that the female audience *would* be offended because of what's written, or anything else. But I'm a woman, and trying to write a non-stereotypical female NPC does my head in. I can't imagine writing a whole new campaign that doesn't gentle coerce a female PC to either fit into a stereotype, or forget about the fact that she's a woman and just make the major plot points independant of gender. Personally, I'd go for the 'forget about gender, get on with the story approach'. I mean, wasn't the point of all that reform in the 50's to get women treated equal to men? It seems the push now is to be thought of as a separate species or something... Hmmm, maybe that's not such a bad idea... Heh heh. Link to comment
PotiusMori Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Oh yeah, there was this article in The Escapist a while back:Holding Out For a Heroine That's relevant to the topic, methinks. Link to comment
Domi Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 I don't think we should stick quite so much to the stereotypes. I have been playing with Minsc-type females (Hildury and someone who stayed on paper) for a while and it was fun. Shar-Teel was one of my all-time favorite characters ever. Kaelyn, who is very much a female Valygar is a popular character in MotB, and I really like her, with her narrow-minded, complete devotions, no-nonsense and inner strength. On the upside of looking into the stories that are geared towards a female protagonist, is that you might just produce something different from a young farmer whose village was burned or someone who is trying to remember his or her past, which seems to kick off the plot of nearly every other module out there.... Link to comment
KIrving Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Four pages later and my spidey sense didn't even pick up on this fun discussion! That's what happens when you get caught up playing IWD2npc project and don't go online for ages. Kudos Domi, I think I'll actually finish a play through of IWD2, for the first time, due to your wonderful mod. I do not agree that games need to offer both a female and male protagonist if the story doesn't call for it. Writing a story to be gender neutral, or to make the protagonist's gender largely irrelevant leaves fairly large gaps or a vague narrative and prevents some of the more personal characterization. I don't know about that, I've played a few games lately that have fixed (yes male) protagonists and I do not get a feeling of immersive characterisation. I've been playing Arx Fatalis because I picked up an xbox version recently and the protagonist is boring. (poor voice acting doesn't help). Also Half Life 2 (I haven't played the first one) doesn't give you much sense of the protagonist at all. There are a lot of action or action/rpg/adventure/(new box to yet be defined) games out there that could easily have gender choice without having to change them that distinctly. I think female gamers are a largely untapped market. Bioware, among the best around to me, still sells the audience short. Anomen, Carth, Disciple, Atton, and even Kaiden. They have always struck me as not only lame romance options, but also strikingly similar in general personality construct. Yeah, there definitely is something of a trend, although, I found the Carth romance fun as you could tease him and joke around and not break the romance. Also BioWare were not responsible for the blandness of Disciple. The PC on my first play-through of KOTOR2 had hair that was almost exactly like his. It was really creepy. I suppose its possible the male dominated industry could become more openminded on its own and simply start producing more female inclusive games. Might be quicker the other way though. I think the key word here is inclusive. Female inclusive does not need to mean male exclusive. I don't think we're going to get this change from mainstream game development as they now seem to be pushing mobile gaming as the next big thing, primarly so they can make small, crappy games and simplified ports of older games for significantly less financial outlay. Still, on a positive note, the latest Australian statistics say that over fourty per cent of Australian gamers are female. Granted, this big increase is probably, primarily, in the area of console gaming. with lonely Leia as the only character I actually don't consider an over-sexed bimbo. Neither Janeway, nor Trinity, nor Eowyn, nor Hermoine were on the list... oh, well. My husband confessed to a Princess Leia crush. It only made me love him more. I guess, but still, not including Delenn and Ivanova anywhere ski-fi-ish is a serious offence. Emphatically agreed. (Heh, I'm revisiting the Babylon 5 series, currently. "Ivanova is God." ) The complaints about bikini-clad boobular armor blah blah blah are all well and good, but it turns out that when dealing with things ~60x25 pixels in size, sometimes those easy visual clues come in handy. In commissioning sprites for TBH, I made a deliberate point of asking our artists to deliver more realistic female forms, full-coverage armor, etc. My reward thus far has been a fair degree of complaints that the genders aren't distinct enough on-screen. (Even from Wes!) Chalk it up as another "we'll see if people put their money where their mouth is" test. Noooo!!! I like my female PC's to look like women. Also I imagine that flat plate mail with out any allowance for breast room(shape) would be very uncomfortable, especially at certain times of the month. Link to comment
jcompton Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Yes, like I said, it was clearly a wasted gesture. Link to comment
berelinde Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Noooo!!! I like my female PC's to look like women. Also I imagine that flat plate mail with out any allowance for breast room(shape) would be very uncomfortable, especially at certain times of the month. Yeah, female form recognition is useful, but please don't mistake fantasy armor for practical armor. Strangely enough, I've actually worn armor, in a history club thing. Your best bet is an unsculpted, roomy, rigid-construction top and a really good sports bra, the kind that flattens you as much as possible. During movement, sculpted construction chafes nastily, and you've got to cut the armholes big enough to move your arms. So molded armor is straight out. But you do need a little room, so I usually opt for something comfy in a brigantine (plates sewn into a canvas or leather outer layer). But when I've got armor on, well, I don't look very feminine. I can see where game designers might opt for something more obvious. Link to comment
Gabrielle Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I would use leather or studded leather. I'm not strong enough to be walking around with plate or probably mail. Plus those are restricting on one's movement. Boys and their fantasy with barely clothed women or women sporting armor that makes them look hot, as in massive amounts of cleavage showing. Link to comment
Caedwyr Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 KIRVING @ Jan 28 2008, 06:37 PM) QUOTE(Caedwyr @ Jan 25 2008, 08:44 PM) * I do not agree that games need to offer both a female and male protagonist if the story doesn't call for it. Writing a story to be gender neutral, or to make the protagonist's gender largely irrelevant leaves fairly large gaps or a vague narrative and prevents some of the more personal characterization. I don't know about that, I've played a few games lately that have fixed (yes male) protagonists and I do not get a feeling of immersive characterisation. I've been playing Arx Fatalis because I picked up an xbox version recently and the protagonist is boring. (poor voice acting doesn't help). Also Half Life 2 (I haven't played the first one) doesn't give you much sense of the protagonist at all. There are a lot of action or action/rpg/adventure/(new box to yet be defined) games out there that could easily have gender choice without having to change them that distinctly. Oh, I don't deny that you can do a poor job at characterization and that many stories can be told just as easily with a female or male protagonist. I'm just saying that for those companies that like to go the extra distance and actually deliver a good story with interesting characters, a fixed gender for the protagonist can be a benefit. Then again, as has been bemoaned more than once, quality stories and interesting characters are not too common amongst video games. Of course this is the same as any form of media, '90% of everything is crud', to paraphrase Theodore Sturgeon. Gabrielle @ Jan 29 2008, 07:44 PMBoys and their fantasy with barely clothed women or women sporting armor that makes them look hot, as in massive amounts of cleavage showing. My favourite pet peeve example of this irritating trend in Fantasy/Sci-fi art is one of the old original covers of Anne McCaffrey's Dragonflight that shows the protagonist on the back of a dragon, perched on top of a mountain peak wearing nothing more than a leather thong. The sheer ridiculousness of the situation, and how the character would be likely dead in about a minute or less if they were to actually attempt to wear such an outfit. (I'm also a real stickler for cover artwork to actually reflect what is in the story/characters inside, another pet peeve of mine.) Link to comment
Daphne Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 This reminds me of an old topic I saw on an art board once - they were lamenting over the fact that in comics, males and females have very specific poses. They just look weird if you switch the gender roles. Here's Superman. (I originally had male-Starfire, but this one is a little less sexualized.) Stereotyping happens for both parties, and it's pretty sad. Guys get lumped into "strong, silent type", "homicidal dude", "brash young man who gets himself into sticky situations", "brooding loner guy", "guy who did something evil but for a good reason", and so on. I'd like to see a princess-type for a guy, but a guy who's a waif would be weird to a lot of people. Guy seductresses exist, although they're rarely main characters and when they are, they're normally just used for comic relief. Girls succeed significantly more. I'm not saying this happens with everyone - I enjoy the task of reversing stereotypes. But it doesn't just happen with women. We need to work with everyone! It's always been my (admittedly odd) view that we need to stop thinking of ourselves as male gamers and female gamers and just as people gamers. Also, keep in mind how quickly this is all happening - D&D started around 40 years ago, video games around 30, female protagonists, developed romances, about 10. We're changing rapidly to this second: there may still be gender-specific games, but it's not the only thing out there anymore! (And speaking of romances, I think we're all getting too picky! But that's a discussion for another day, and I'm still the person who preferred Garrus over Kaiden...) Link to comment
theacefes Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Well, I mean, if one is going to portray the females in hawt chainmail armor that is molded perfectly to their form, one had better make sure to include the perfect makeup that NEVER runs or gets ruined. Please, take special care to ensure this happens, all you game developers. It's important. Link to comment
Sorrow Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Boys and their fantasy with barely clothed women or women sporting armor that makes them look hot, as in massive amounts of cleavage showing. Don't forget about girls and their fantasy of being sword-armed sexual predators . This reminds me of an old topic I saw on an art board once - they were lamenting over the fact that in comics, males and females have very specific poses. They just look weird if you switch the gender roles. Here's Superman. (I originally had male-Starfire, but this one is a little less sexualized.) XD This pose would look weird even with supergirl XD . Stereotyping happens for both parties, and it's pretty sad. Guys get lumped into "strong, silent type", "homicidal dude", "brash young man who gets himself into sticky situations", "brooding loner guy", "guy who did something evil but for a good reason", and so on. I'd like to see a princess-type for a guy, but a guy who's a waif would be weird to a lot of people. Guy seductresses exist, although they're rarely main characters and when they are, they're normally just used for comic relief. Girls succeed significantly more. I have a distinct impression that it's hard for developers to do something more than a stereotype character. They probably don't have time to think how things would work if they weren't stereotypical. It's always been my (admittedly odd) view that we need to stop thinking of ourselves as male gamers and female gamers and just as people gamers. Exactly. Actually, I find the sexism presented by some people here disturbing . (And speaking of romances, I think we're all getting too picky! But that's a discussion for another day, and I'm still the person who preferred Garrus over Kaiden...) I don't know how in other games but in BG2 romance choices were very poor. Three bitches for male protagonist and one asshole for female protagonist. Link to comment
berelinde Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I don't know how in other games but in BG2 romance choices were very poor. Three bitches for male protagonist and one asshole for female protagonist. Somebody already said that BG2 has all three feminine stereotypes represented: "good girl," "older woman," and "seductress," so it saves me the trouble. I pretty much agree with your assessment, though I like Anomen for it anyway. Of the female ones, I find Viconia the most palatable, though I get bored with the tramp routine pretty quickly. Link to comment
Caelellowynn Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I wish I had spidey-sense like you KIrving, I might get into less trouble that way (oh crap that's right, I'm trying to reform from using these). Yeah I agree, probably not. I have, perhaps, a most bizarre question. What exactly do we mean when we say "people gamers". I know it probably seems self-evident to many but humor me please. And how exactly does this effect game content/story arch? Or is it more a terminology change? Link to comment
Gabrielle Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 BG2 had the best romances. Other games like the Kotors and NWN2 I wouldn't even call a romance. Link to comment
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