berelinde Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Keldorn's love for Maria was real, I think, but I'm not so sure about hers for him. There isn't only *one* reason for infidelity, of course, but I find two particular ones very easy to believe. There's the "I don't want to lose my spouse, but he/she will never know" reason. That one doesn't end well, for either party. The faithful spouse is hurt, betrayed, and both the love and the trust he/she held for the straying spouse is severely damaged. The straying spouse winds up hurt, too, because the faithful partner he/she didn't want to lose is now gone. It takes a lot of therapy to get over this one, for both parties. Then there's the "Divorce is impossible, but I no longer love my spouse. I have fallen in love with someone else." reason. That can end well... but only for the straying spouse. In this case, the straying spouse eventually works up the determination to leave the faithful spouse. The faithful spouse is devastated, but like any heartbreak, recovery is possible. I could see the Keldorn/Maria breakup happening for the second reason. Sure, Maria is glad that Keldorn didn't kill Sir W(something). She probably loved him, and he isn't dead, so no matter how it went, she's happy. Remember, her first words after the confrontation are "Am I to take it that Sir W(something) lies dead?". I don't know how much she loved Keldorn any more, but her first thoughts were for her lover. Sure, she probably intended to live happily ever after with Keldorn, and never stray again, but her resolve will weaken once the adrenaline wears off, and Keldorn will begin to irritate her before too long. She'll probably start seeing Sir W(something) again before too long, and it's possible she'd run away with him, whether Keldorn was there or not. In fact, Keldorn staying home after reconcilliation with Maria is likely to hasten the breakup. Or at least that's what I'd expect if these were real people. @Bursk: Link to comment
Sephira Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 @ Berelinde: Thank you. Those are exactly my feelings on the matter as a whole, both in game and out. Link to comment
Kulyok Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 4. After some time, and another dialogue or two, Keldorn will ask if you mind stopping by his house again to see his family. You'll catch Maria in the arms of her lover again, where she will accuse him by driving her to it, ect. This time, it's Maria who has no interest in a reconciliation. In a bit gentler tone, she'll have a talk with Keldorn where she apologises, but tells him something along the lines of "You know we married young, and back then, everything seemed to have limitless possibilities. But things change. You became more involved in your work while I stayed behind, and somewhere along the lines we sort of . . . fell apart." She will then tell him it's best if she simply leaves, and will not be talked out of it. (I didn't want to go the route of simply vilifying her -- I wanted to give her some depth and make her into someone with actual feeling and motive) Ah. To me, it strays too far from the original path, where Maria is deeply in love with Keldorn, misses him dearly, and only starts seening another man because she is terribly lonely; where she says "If I cannot have *you*, at least let me have something!" "Lady Maria, a serial cheater" is something I cannot envision happening. And, yes, when people start mentioning torches, pitchforks or "don't like it, don't play it" argument, I find it's time to back off. Slowly. Good luck with your mod. Link to comment
Sephira Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Ah. To me, it strays too far from the original path, where Maria is deeply in love with Keldorn, misses him dearly, and only starts seening another man because she is terribly lonely; where she says "If I cannot have *you*, at least let me have something!" "Lady Maria, a serial cheater" is something I cannot envision happening. And, yes, when people start mentioning torches, pitchforks or "don't like it, don't play it" argument, I find it's time to back off. Slowly. Good luck with your mod. Thanks for the luck, and the input! I don't see her as a serial cheater. I see her as a deeply unhappy person whose life turned out very different than what she wanted. Understand, I'm talking about her being back with the same man here, not having flings with every coweled wizard. Of course, some people are bound to disagree with it, but hey -- any form of expansion towards these games is more or less fan fiction anyway. No matter how well written something is, it's never going to be canon. Link to comment
Ankhesenpaaten Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Thanks for the luck, and the input! I don't see her as a serial cheater. I see her as a deeply unhappy person whose life turned out very different than what she wanted. Understand, I'm talking about her being back with the same man here, not having flings with every coweled wizard. Of course, some people are bound to disagree with it, but hey -- any form of expansion towards these games is more or less fan fiction anyway. No matter how well written something is, it's never going to be canon. That is well said and I see it that way too. I don't see why that can't work as I think many "real" people suffer from the very same thing. You aren't going to be able to please everyone but by trying your best to do a good job and above all please yourself I think is the way to go. I like how you are planning to do things here and I hope you do this mod. I for one really want it! Link to comment
Ankhesenpaaten Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I think some even want Irenicus ... people will remember my first post about Irenicus romance forever, even though it's been deleted from the Studios, will they... Was that you??? I honestly didn't know/remember that! I had lurked for ages before registering and just recalled someone wanting Irenicus. Didn't recall it was you! Or maybe you were against it? Anyway I wasn't trying to pin you down! Link to comment
Sephira Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Thanks, Ankhesenpaaten! . . . and, Kulyok, oh, my gosh, I was just thinking about that yesterday! "Didn't somebody, way back when, say something about an Irenicus mod on SHS?" . . . *thinks about it* . . . . . . *found twitching and foaming in her chair several hours later by a very confused husband, muttering something about bad men and bad thoughts* Link to comment
Amaurea Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 You know, at the risk of TMI here, I'm married to a workaholic. And love him deeply. And when he's ignored me too long, I talk to him about it, I don't go looking to have an affair. Just sayin'. And I live in today's society where having an affair doesn't carry the stigma that it once did. How accepted is it to have affairs as the wife of a noble in Amn? The "something for me" aspect of Maria's excuse is terribly immature, and terribly selfish. It's the act of someone past the point of caring--particularly given that she let this man escort her and the CHILDREN somewhere! Involving the kids in the affair?!?!?!? The mind, she boggles. I can't imagine this behavior in real life coming from someone deeply in love, but hurt. As you can see, I don't hold much sympathy for Maria. Being older, having maintained a long-term relationship, and having a family--well, it gives perspective, and I don't find Maria's declaration of deep love all that believable. I can see her as once loving him very much, but it having died in much the way Sephira has planned. Link to comment
berelinde Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I'm with Amaurea and Sephira here. When the love is real, and it's still alive, ten years' absence is nothing. Sure, the absence is unpleasant, but a person in love would never use it as an excuse to cheat. When the love has died, though, absence makes a convenient and face-saving excuse. When separation is unavoidable, you don't long for some random "someone," just to take you to the theater or to sit next to by the fire. You don't need a lover for that. Friends will do just as well, or better, because they'll talk of the one you miss. Link to comment
ElaineMc Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Just as another data point, when I've "played" a Keldorn romance during a game, this is how it goes in my head: - He's on the Unseeing Eye quest because Maria's already gone, and has been for a while. His line about the church ("perhaps that is all I have ever had") sums up his life since their separation. He let her go because he loved her, and blamed himself for their estrangement. - The interaction with Maria later isn't a breakup / reconciliation between Maria and Keldorn, but between Maria and Sir William (Maybe William's been on the road a lot lately, himself?). Keldorn's no longer in love with her, but he very much wants her happiness; Maria turns to him for comfort and aid while she sorts out her head. - Vesper and Leona are much, much younger, and a product of Maria & Sir William's relationship. I agree that Sephira's version makes sense; and I'm looking forward to both this mod and Senka's. And also a Sarevok mod might be fun I know it's so wrong but it feels so right. Link to comment
Domi Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I always saw Maria as a victim, who was wed very young, likely without much input on her side, and did her best to be a loving wife. In fact, she might even have fallen for Keldorn at some point. But finally she rebelled when she was just locked up and ignored, and I think she did the right thing to start looking for another man. Now, it sounds like the divorce was not an option, so I kind of respect her for flaunting the societal rules and throwing it into Keldorn's face. While I have no interest in romancing Keldorn myself, my quibble with the possibility of his romance is the demonization of Maria (ie it's all her own fault and all that). But I doubt that it matters any, seeing that again, I am not going to be playing BG2 ever again. Link to comment
jastey Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Ooh, I love your approach, Sephira As I stated above I am all in for leaving the original parts in the game. Just one thing: The way it is now, the Keldorn-PC romance would develop from the point of "she betrayed and left him, he is heartbroken". I would even enjoy more the thought that Maria does not go and see another man (or the same as before), but just realizes she does not want to live with Keldorn any more. So, no cheating from "badbad" Maria, but a woman who realises that the life she once agreed to lead is not what she wants any more. Keldorn would still be heartbroken, of course, but the basis would be different. If you know what I mean... EDIT: Domi put it very good: I would appreciate no demonization of Maria, or showing it's all her fault, either. I think Keldorn missed quite a lot in their relationship; since it is mentioned somewhere he didn't even came around if he was in the Order. Maybe his love isn't so deep at all, maybe he feels more obliged to care for her? Who knows. Sure is, that he took her endless love for granted, and gave nothing back. And that's his fault. Link to comment
Sephira Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm absorbing it all. jastey, I see what you mean. I haven't even gotten around to writing most of that scene anyway, so we'll see how that goes. Again, it isn't my intention to demonise Maria. While that would be the easier path ("Oh, Keldorn, she wronged you so, but I would never do that 'cause I'm CHARNAME, she of the TRUE LOVE and perky bosom!"), it would also be the cheaper way out. I don't necessarily mean that when you return to his home again you stumble upon them in bed together -- it could be something as simple as finding them deep in private conversation. I think that sort of intimacy would be nearly as painful (if not, in my opinion, moreso) as if Keldorn did find them *ahem* in the alltogether. Ultimately, the romance with the PC depends on Keldorn realising that sometimes, no matter how much you may want it to, things don't always go as your heart wishes to dictate it. I don't want to present the female protaginist as opportunistic. ElaineMC, I do wish the kidlets were younger. Would make a lot of interactions easier. And there is going to be some dialogue with them. (Not too much, and I don't want it to become campy and sitcom-esque . . . "Who are you and why does my father tell me to call you Auntie CHARNAME?!" You know what I mean.) Also, there is a Sarevok relationship in progress (frozen progress unfortunately) over at RPG Dungeon . . . *thinks bad thoughts again* GAH! Stay on track, brain. As far as the friendship and mentor track goes, his relationship with Maria will still play into it, albeit to a lesser extent. Obviously for this track to progress, you need to keep Keldorn with you, but you have the opportunity to suggest returning back to his home to pay a visit to his family, leading to one little side-scene where you can have dinner with him and his family and just sort of chat about his past. And, of course, if CHARNAME (male or female) is in a romance with someone, Keldorn will venture a few words of caution based on his own experience ("Never ever take them for granted."). Link to comment
jcompton Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Keep in mind, of course, that a romance mod targeted at a BioNPC is the surest way to have your mod take five years longer than you think it should. The road behind us is littered with the corpses of abandoned Keldorn, Valygar, Haer'Dalis, Minsc, etc. romances. (Standard "good luck with this one" for the wouldn't-a-Keldorn-romance-be-great: good luck selling Keldorn as Doing the Right Thing when his rebound relationship is a woman ~30 years younger than he is.) When the love is real, and it's still alive, ten years' absence is nothing. That's certainly how it's supposed to work in storybooks and the Homeric tradition and all, and BG2 is of course an interactive storybook, but if we're talking about realistic human emotions, I'm not too convinced. I consider myself extremely fortunate in that I have been basically joined at the hip with my wife since I met her, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if she stopped coming home for years at a time that I just might consider other options for intimate companionship. I think that in strained situations people start compartmentalizing their "love" a bit more. (Odysseus did come home to his wife, after all!) irenicus romance etc Longer Redemption is a love letter to the guy, what more do you people want? But I doubt that it matters any, seeing that again, I am not going to be playing BG2 ever again. (my apologies for this sidebar, Keldorn romancer person.) Domi, you know I love you with doubtless unhealthy enthusiasm, so please bear that in mind when I ask--please stop saying that. We know already, because you keep saying it in every other post. I feel like you've decided it should take the place of "Sincerely" and "Yours Truly" in daily correspondence. "To Whom It May Concern: Please suspend my gas service from 15 March through 25 March 2008, as I will be on an extended vacation and will not heating my home or using the stove. Thank you for your consideration. Never Playing or Modding BG2 Again, Domi." Link to comment
Domi Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I am glad that you are taking this approach. It's maybe less immediately gratifying, but it makes the situation more real and in the end, I think, it will appeal to more people when they have a chance to think about it. Cheers. Link to comment
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