About Kivan

[Guest Arkan]

First of all I want to thank everyone who contributed in this mod, its been really great and truly brings BG1 to the level of its "big brother". Great mod!

 

However, I can't help but noticing that some of the NPC's seem to have gotten way more attention than others. Especially Kivan, who in my opinion has somewhat been turned into a Mary Sue-type character (if you know what I mean). The guy just won't shut up about fantastic his race is and pretty much always has something to say to every situation. And I can't really help but to feel that whoever did the Kivan parts with the elven language and stuff just has a huge hard-on for elves, which honestly kinda irritates me. Especially as someone who isn't a huge fan of elves in general.

 

The free +2 spear was just icing on the cake...

 

I ended up kicking Kivan out and getting Kagain instead, which is a shame because Kivan is great with a bow - I just couldn't stand him. Makes me feel like one NPC is blatantly favoured over another, which is understandable in a fan-based mod yet not very desirable if the goal is to make the mod as professional as possible.

 

But maybe it's fine that way, I never could take Anomen in bg2 either because of his character - maybe its okay. Just something I felt like I had to "vent" about. Still, thanks for the great mod!

[Domi]

We tried our best to provide even content for every character; we had the reconmmended number of talks (5, which was later reduced to 2), banter (at least 1 with every other character) and interjections (at least 20) for every character, and no character deviates from it too greatly (appart in the interjection area, which were the things deviated the most); as a writing coordinator at the time, I tried to make sure every author provided the minumum amount of content. However, since the authors differ, and each author has a different emphasis, the content is in the end uneven - just like it is uneven in a BioWARE game where say Jaheira or Minsk has >> content than Valygar or Cernd.

 

Kivan doesn't have the highest number of interjections (I think there are between 40 and 50 for the game, and most of them are concentrarted around the areas important to him ie High Hedge and the Bandit Camp). IIRC, it was Jaheira or Garrick who had the highest number of itj, and actually quite a few have as many or more than Kiv does. His friendship track is slightly longer than the average, 8 talks compared to the # we shoot for in the beginning (5 per character), but he is not the only character who has extra dialogues. By that reason the 'friendship sequences' for Xan and Coran were not included in the mod, as they would have skew the balance too much.

 

You definetly should kick the characters who irritate you out; there are 25 characters, so just select those who appeal to you personally. If you dislike elves, you might want to stick with the non-elves, because both Xan and Coran will have plenty of the elven-specific content as well.

 

You can also 'even out' the content by either selecting all the NPCs that are more talkative than the others (ie the romances, Xan, Imoen, Jaheira, Faldorn, Garrick, etc) or selecting characters that are less talkative than the others (ie Khalid, Yeslick, Kagain, Viconia, Safana etc). Or you can mix and match the 'talkative' and the 'quiet' NPCs.

 

I am pretty positive that Kivan's spear is +1 in BG1, if not, please, guys, check this, it was intended to be +1)

[Kulyok]

If you dislike elves, you might want to stick with the non-elves, because both Xan and Coran will have plenty of the elven-specific content as well.

 

I would disagree here. From Thoughts on Interjections it seems that the cause of negative reaction is often not as much the number of interjections, banters or (elven-specific) content, as the character himself, or modder's interpretation of the character. Kelsey's fans welcome each new interjection with a smile; Kelsey's haters groan "Here he goes again..." Replace Kelsey with Xan, and you'll get the same picture.

[Domi]

Well, yes, it's the same category as the definition of whining as anything that comes out of the mouth of a character you do not like, but still, I think that there is an emphasis on the elven heritage in both Xan and Coran - a totally appropriate one - so the OP might want to steer clear if s/he just can't take another "We, the elves...."

[cmorgan]

Current code, unchanged from v11, as far as I can see:

 

@74   = ~Elven Spear~
@75   = ~Elven Spear of Entanglement~
@76   = ~One of man's earliest weapons, dating back to the most primitive of times, the first spears were simply wooden poles or sticks sharpened at one end.  When man mastered metals, spearheads were made from iron and steel.  Having reached this end, weaponers began experimenting with different types of spear heads, thus leading to the development of certain polearm types.

STATISTICS:

Damage:  1D6
Damage type:  piercing
Weight: 5
Speed Factor: 6
Proficiency Type: Spear
Type:  2-handed
Not Usable By:
Cleric
 Mage~
@77   = ~This is a plain looking short spear with a leaf-shaped point. It was balanced for a slender elven hand. Mage Thalantyr enchanted the weapon for Kivan of Shilmista.

STATISTICS:

Combat Abilities:
10% chance with every hit that opponent is entangled for 24 seconds, no save
THAC0: +2 bonus
Damage:  1D6 +2
Damage type:  piercing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 4
Proficiency Type: Spear
Type:  2-handed
Requires: 5 Strength
Only Usable By: Elves
Not Usable By:
Cleric
Mage~

Given the fact that he can't get more than 1 pip in proficiency with it, and it can't upgrade (he gets a bow which also gets ignored by players, unless they are truly roleplaying, as it is best to give him the best bow ingame and let him sniper his way into BG2), no way this is powergaming, folks - this is entirely unused unless someone is silly enough to run him out of arrows, in which case it is a player problem not a mod problem...

 

I kit him as an archer, give him the best gbow and this spear as a backup, and he works as intended - an elven archer. Not Legolas on steroids, but a canon FR distance fighter.

 

I see no compelling reason to go back in and nerf him further, unless you absolutely demand it, Domi. Xan's Moonblade and Jaheira's Club, etc., are similarly matched.

 

I appreciate your stopping by to give feedback, Arkan The cool thing about this mod is you can grab other NPCs and have some fun. The quietest NPC in-project is a tie between Yeslick and Tiax, I believe, so either one would work.

[Domi]

If +2 doesn't look too bad in that combination, let it stay +2.

[Miloch]

Given the fact that he can't get more than 1 pip in proficiency with it

Unless I'm mistaken, Kivan should be able to put 2 stars in any weapon as a ranger.

 

What's a bit silly is that, in Tutu anyway, he begins with proficiencies in halberd and long bow, and the ranger bonus two-weapon skill. If you get him at at higher levels, he gets a two-handed sword proficiency, of all things. Both the halberd and two-handed sword are rather stupid - if he has the two-weapon skill by default, why not let him take advantage of it.

 

Unfortunately, the BG2-style halberd proficiency does not let him use spears proficiently .

 

Tutu interpreted his proficiencies wrongly IMO, as it did for many NPCs. In BG1 he has 2 stars in bows and spears (which also lets him use halberds in BG1's system) and gains large sword later, which lets him use any type of longer sword, scimitar etc. You can, of course, choose to ignore all this for BG1 NPC, but I would make the spear a halberd +1 (it's 1d10 as opposed to 1d6) or change his proficiency from halberd to spears, like it should've been if interpreted true to the original BG1. BGT might handle this better - no idea.

 

As for dialogue, I never found him particularly annoying. It's not like he has some sort of arrogant "elven master race" attitude... not if he's willing to befriend a half-orc (possibly half-drow) character, heh. What does annoy me, as I've commented before, is the inappropriateness of banters firing at certain times, like when you're lurking through the forest trying to put the drop on some diseased gibberlings or something. A skilled hunter like Kivan wouldn't start spouting off about his childhood at this point - he'd wait till you got to a city or inn or something. And this is perhaps the point - it's not the number or frequency or even content of the banters, but the ill timing.

[berelinde]

I'm with Miloch on this one. Kivan is the least offensive of *all* the elves when it comes to making a big deal of his heritage. Sure, he has his anectdotes, but everybody has a past.

 

Sorry, Domi, but I disagree with you about the whining thing. There are plenty of characters I dislike for reasons other than whinig, although if a character does it, I'm not likely to enjoy their dialogue, though there are exceptions.

 

I'm not crazy about Jaheira because she's too bossy, and has an inappropriate interest in her ward, not because she whines. She's probably the least whiney of the entire BioWare cast, but that doesn't make me like her better.

 

Anomen, on the other hand, whines quite a bit, but that doesn't prevent me from liking him.

 

But no, while Kivan is no ray of sunshine, I don't think he whines. I reserve that word for NPCs that complain about issues that affect only them, like Anomen's lack of a supportive family, Nalia's eternal disappointment that the whole world won't drop everything and join her rather nebulous crusade, or Aerie pining after her wings.

[cmorgan]

The proficiency thing I will leave to the experts, with a vague supportive "yeah, cool, as long as I don't have to code it into BG1 NPC"

 

I agree in principal, but this is one of those "floodgates" things that I think Nythrun's L1 NPCs really shines.

 

For example, I could build a Harper Scout kit for Jaheira, install DR and use the Justifier kit for Khalid, and set everything up the way *I* think the game should have been written. And, of course, set up the proficiencies that match.

 

 

But I am saying a genial but firm *no* to BG1 NPC proficiency adjustment components, and leaving that to other mods.

 

As for the banters and interjections firing at odd times, I am not sure there is much more we can do that AREA() and CombatCounter(0) checks, without seriously interfering with the freindship sequence.

[Domi]

I like Kivan's stuff firing in the forest, because he feels at ease there, so he's 'visible'; inns and cities on the other hand are not his element, so that's where he shuts up and 'dissappears' from the party. Quantity, frequency and the use of elvish is what the OP disliked, I am pretty positive about it from his post.

[cmorgan]

Sounds good! (no changes).

[Miloch]

I guess I just have bad luck with always being in the middle of something fairly painstaking with the interface, like inventory juggling or thieving or prepping for a fight, and inevitably people start babbling rather inappropriately, when they'd be putting a cork in it if they'd half a clue as to what was going on around them. And it's not so much the dialogue per se as it is the fact it disrupts the GUI, and I have to page through the dialogue and then figure out where I left off with what I was doing. And, you know, I'd actually like to participate in that dialogue and read it at my leisure, not when I'm about to jump a pack of kobold commandos or make a heist. So it'd be nice to have a sort of temporary "party silencer" for those moments, or even an option to say, like brave Sir Robin, "Eh, that's enough singing for now, lads. Look's like there's dirty work afoot..."

 

Not that I expect anyone to implement that, or even listen. It's just sad when technical stuff gets in the way of an otherwise enjoyable experience.

[Kulyok]

It doesn't, when I care about the character. When Anomen is about to talk with my female protagonist among the attacking enemies in Trademeet, or Nalia is about to thank my male character when the Cowled wizards are about to appear, do you think I care about anything else but the fact that we are about to talk? Hells, no.

 

... of course, when it's Imoen, she's dead or booted whatever she says.

[Miloch]

So... are you introducing Anomen and Nalia as BG1 NPCs or are you working on a BG2 NPC project?

 

I'd rather not see Anomen's ugly mug north of the Cloudpeaks, though another thief, and a female one at that, might be a useful replacement for Imoen or Safana.