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Making Shaelina talk


ericp07

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Hello,

 

In planning to add dialog/banter to the Shaelina mod, it occurred to me to ask people here a little about what to say and how to say it.

 

I figure that, since she's far removed from Cormanthor, Shaelina shouldn't spend too much time talking about the details of her own home. Perhaps she could make comparisons to forest areas the party travels through in the game that relate, but her commentary would probably be more interesting if focused on flora and fauna they encounter that she finds familiar, so she can give useful information. Obviously, she'll spend some time talking about her patron deity, Mielikki, about that deity's nemesis, Malar, and about her point of view on nature and on environmental friendliness. She might also discuss racial relations to some extent. Other than that, I'm open to suggestions for subject matter that would be appropriate to an adult Sylvan Elf (she's 134 years old at the time of BGII) who's been outside Cormanthor woods only once before, and who has never been inside any settlement larger than a small town. She'll be able to relate to the protagonist's having lost a father figure, as her own father was slain shortly before Shaelina became an adult in her people's eyes (110 years old by Human reckoning). Her meeting with every character in the game, including the protagonist, will be her first. Among the races outside her own, she's traveled with Humans, Dwarves, and a Gnome. I'm trying to decide whether to make her racial enemy be Orcs or Lycanthropes. The latter makes sense to me, as that relates to her dedication to fighting those who serve Malar, and part of his portfolio is evil Lycanthropes.

 

One custom of the "civilized" peoples that she finds particularly interesting is female grooming and fashion. Most times, she's comfortable dressing in a baldric and sash, but she shows fascination with fine dresses, and with hair combs and other hair accessories. She completely lacks experience with such things, though, which invites some comic relief whenever she tries to make herself look "fancy" :)

 

What other subject matter would be a welcome addition, and add interest without too much distraction?

 

On perhaps a technical note, I've examined some of the files in other mods to get an idea of structure and flow of conversation, and I've found that writing verbal exchanges in a linear fashion will probably be easiest for me. I'm thinking I should start by just writing out dialog as though I was scripting a play, and then putting it into the .d files with the right coding.

 

All feedback is most welcome, as always :)

 

Thanks,

Eric

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Linear writing could be easier, but as the game is interactive, it leads to few drawbacks that I have noticed: too extensive or repeated descriptions; not enough player options; short individual branches of conversations; looping branches of the conversations. I would always advise to write as close to the final, tree structure as you could.

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I've been putting off replying to this all day.

 

Part of the problem is that I don't know what, exactly, you're asking.

 

Are you trying to get someone to tell you how to write? JC is running some kind of a series on writing style over at PPG, if that's what you're into, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. I've always found that when somebody tries to write like somebody else, it seems to sound stilted and forced. But who knows? Sometimes, that can work in your favor.

 

Are you trying to get someone to tell you how to code? You've got some very good tutorials. Page us when you get stuck. It will happen, repeatedly, and probably will for a good, long time.

 

Are you telling us how Shaelina should sound? OK... fair enough. I did wonder.

 

Or are you asking how to write out Shaelina's dialogues *not* in code to make them easier to code later?

 

You write differently when you know you're going to code it later. When it's just written out, like a dialogue in a book, the tendency is to railroad the PC into responding a single way. For example, you want to write a dialogue between Shaelina and the PC about Mielikki.

 

Shaelina: How much do you know about Mielikki?

PC: Not very much.

Shaelina: (goes on and explains)

 

You see? Right there, in the second line, you've already imposed your will on the PC. What if the PC is a ranger <PRO_HIMHER>self? Or maybe just knows a lot about religion, in general.

 

So, follow Domi's advice. Even if you aren't going to code it right away, write it like you are.

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Linear writing could be easier, but as the game is interactive, it leads to few drawbacks that I have noticed: too extensive or repeated descriptions; not enough player options; short individual branches of conversations; looping branches of the conversations. I would always advise to write as close to the final, tree structure as you could.

 

By that, do you mean like the tutorial examples? Maybe I should stick with that, then, as that's how I began the .d files. Not sure my naming conventions are correct in those files, though...

 

It does occur to me that naming the dialog snippets obviates the need for linear structure. Best to pick an organizational strategy and stick with it.

 

Thanks,

Eric

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Open up a mod you see

 

IF ~~ STATE0

SAY ~blajdfasipfjaafajfioweqpfwafaffpui~ //whatever

++ ~dfjaskpfqwep~ + GOTO STATE

++ ~jfdaspfweaijpfew~ + GOTO STATE2

++ ~fjdsipweqj~ + GOTO STATE3

END

 

When you write it out, you'd follow more or less the same format, considering possible PC replies for each line of Shaelina's.

 

Sorry that's terse. I'm on my way out the door.

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I've been putting off replying to this all day.

 

Part of the problem is that I don't know what, exactly, you're asking.

 

Are you trying to get someone to tell you how to write? JC is running some kind of a series on writing style over at PPG, if that's what you're into, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. I've always found that when somebody tries to write like somebody else, it seems to sound stilted and forced. But who knows? Sometimes, that can work in your favor.

 

Are you trying to get someone to tell you how to code? You've got some very good tutorials. Page us when you get stuck. It will happen, repeatedly, and probably will for a good, long time.

 

Are you telling us how Shaelina should sound? OK... fair enough. I did wonder.

 

Or are you asking how to write out Shaelina's dialogues *not* in code to make them easier to code later?

 

You write differently when you know you're going to code it later. When it's just written out, like a dialogue in a book, the tendency is to railroad the PC into responding a single way. For example, you want to write a dialogue between Shaelina and the PC about Mielikki.

 

Shaelina: How much do you know about Mielikki?

PC: Not very much.

Shaelina: (goes on and explains)

 

You see? Right there, in the second line, you've already imposed your will on the PC. What if the PC is a ranger <PRO_HIMHER>self? Or maybe just knows a lot about religion, in general.

 

So, follow Domi's advice. Even if you aren't going to code it right away, write it like you are.

 

No, I'm not asking how to write or how to code. Looking at the example you provided above, I'd rather avoid making that kind of assumption on the PC or NPC's part, and "force" the dialog to move in a particular direction. In a case like that, I'll provide a few levels of response, which in turn will determine Shaelina's response, and so on. I feel I'll have a good enough handle on phrasing things. I've done a great deal of writing of various sorts over the years, so I have that experience from which to draw.

 

I gave some detail about the character to ask what would be good subject matter for her conversations, as I want to write exchanges (sometimes involving more than just herself and one other character) that will be interesting and relevant, so the player/reader won't consider it a waste to wade through the conversations.

 

Thanks,

Eric

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Sorry for being terse with you, Eric. I'm trying to answer your questions, and just getting confused myself.

 

Probably best for everyone if I just keep my head down, clear my current obligations, and not post on forums until I've got enough free time to be civil.

 

It isn't because I don't want to see you make a go of this!

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I remember reading a discussion about banters once wherein Kulyok stated her preference for banters that provided exposition on relationships over those which were more of the same-old, same-old (Jaheira loves balance, Korgan's rude and bloodthirsty, Aerie misses her wings, Nalia pities the poor, yada, yada, yada...). I think that's a good thing to keep in mind. Remember that all your banters have the opportunity to not just introduce Shaelina to the player, but to the party as well ... and in so doing, the reactions of Shaelina and the party to each other will provide the player with good insight into some of the subtle shadings of Shaelina's character.

 

As far as subject matter, I could offer some suggestions, but they'd depend on Shaelina's nature. Is she reticent? Does she have the insular view typical of Sylvan elves, or will she be more outgoing than most? Is she curious about other people, or is the company of others something that must be endured as a means to an end?

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I remember reading a discussion about banters once wherein Kulyok stated her preference for banters that provided exposition on relationships over those which were more of the same-old, same-old (Jaheira loves balance, Korgan's rude and bloodthirsty, Aerie misses her wings, Nalia pities the poor, yada, yada, yada...). I think that's a good thing to keep in mind. Remember that all your banters have the opportunity to not just introduce Shaelina to the player, but to the party as well ... and in so doing, the reactions of Shaelina and the party to each other will provide the player with good insight into some of the subtle shadings of Shaelina's character.

 

As far as subject matter, I could offer some suggestions, but they'd depend on Shaelina's nature. Is she reticent? Does she have the insular view typical of Sylvan elves, or will she be more outgoing than most? Is she curious about other people, or is the company of others something that must be endured as a means to an end?

 

This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for when I posted, and I'm glad you asked the questions you did. It occurred to me only after posting that I should provide more detail about Shaelina's personal outlook, as that has everything to do with the subject matter of potential conversations. Rest assured that I won't have her rehashing the same theme throughout the game :)

 

The Wood Elf entry in the on-line Forgotten Realms Wiki says this of the subrace: "Wood elves were the last of the elven subraces to appear on Faerûn, though not through the same method as the other subraces. The wood elves are actually native to Faerûn, the descendants of green elves, silver elves and gold elves who decided to retreat to the deepest woodland areas after the last of the Crown Wars. While not following the same path as the wild elves, they formed tightly-knit, networked commnities, leaving behind high magic and becoming closer to nature. The interbreeding between the three subraces created the wood elves of today." They're devoted to protecting their small towns and native forests. Shaelina knows this about her people, and about some of the major events in Elven history, but mostly she recalls information only of the last 6000 years or so of her people.

 

She was raised in a somewhat nomadic extended family, consisting of her parents, their siblings, and their children (and a few grandchildren). The group makes camp in a different location withing Cormanthor woods each season, and several members of this community travel throughout the forest, maintaining trails, keeping caches of food and supplies stocked, and tending to the flora and fauna. Some, including Shaelina, serve as trail guides for travelers who wish to move through the woods. Shaelina has led caravans and adventuring parties through a few areas, and is always curious to learn about the people from beyond the forest. She and her kin consider Humans, Dwarves, and Halflings to be friends and allies, unless individuals prove themselves otherwise.

 

Like many Sylvan Elves, Shaelina's reserved and cautious attitude toward strangers is tempered by compassion. She enjoys helping those in need when she can, and is fond of learning about the world outside the forest, even if she's reluctant to travel beyond the comfort of the trees, herself. That said, she's interested in exploring other woods and wilderness areas in the wider world, and in meeting and interacting with rangers and druids. Her demeanor is kind and serene, and she has her people's legendary patience. Adventuring life has helped Shaelina to become accustomed to dealing with a variety of people. She measures out her trust according to how much she perceives that others deserve it by their actions. She has a great deal of youthful enthusiasm, especially toward learning and discovery, and she seeks to understand the point of view of the company she keeps, while greatly desiring to instill in others a respect at least, and a love and reverence at most, for the perfect balance of a thriving natural ecosystem, such as her native forest. Of course, she's always eager to discuss her faith and service, and what she knows of the Lady of the Forest, the Supreme Ranger, Mielikki. Her passion extends to a burning opposition of all who serve the Great Beast, Malar, especially evil Lycanthropes and clerics who serve that foul deity.

 

All this should provide plenty of source material, I think, for Shaelina's conversations with other party members. One thing that concerns me is how to best capture the attitudes and points of view of BioWare and mod NPCs, and reflect those in the conversations.

 

Thanks,

Eric

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Hmmm. This still sounds a bit heavy on things, not personality. I personally would love to see a lot more event-dependent commentary/discussion by NPC's in the game. For example, you kill Firkraag, a HUGE mighty beast, and for the most part, there's just chirping crickets in the wake of this major event! WTH???

 

How do you see the relationships between Shaelina and the Bioware NPC's playing out?

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All this should provide plenty of source material, I think, for Shaelina's conversations with other party members. One thing that concerns me is how to best capture the attitudes and points of view of BioWare and mod NPCs, and reflect those in the conversations.

Getting the "voice" of each NPC right is challenging, moreso if you want to do the full spectrum of BG1 to BG2, because you've got 41 NPCs to do instead of 25 or 16. Yes, I'm counting recurring NPCs twice, because BG2 Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc/Edwin/Viconia is different from BG1 Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc/Edwin/Viconia. But if you read enough of their dialogue, you'll get it... mostly. I still have a tough time with Edwin and Viconia.

 

As for the mod NPCs, that will be easy, since you'll be doing crossmod with the modders themselves. They can tweak things to make their NPC sound more like their NPC.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the dialogues don't always have to be about Shaelina. Or about the other NPC. The banters I like best are those that have very little to do with either NPC, those that just seem to spring up from something they might have been talking about while walking along.

 

Yoshimo: Shaelina, mistress of forest lore, do you recognize that shrub, the one with the red berries?

Shaelina: Yes. It's a chokeberry bush. Why?

Yoshimo: And its berries... are they edible?

Shaelina: The birds love them, and dwarves can stomach them, I think, but they are no good for humans or elves.

Yoshimo: Ah. That explains it. Excuse me, please.

 

Let's face it, so many of the "Why did you become what you are?" banters have already been covered, or are discussed between the NPC and the PC directly.

 

And don't forget about arguments! They're a lot of fun, and they don't have to end in violence, or with someone leaving the party.

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All this should provide plenty of source material, I think, for Shaelina's conversations with other party members. One thing that concerns me is how to best capture the attitudes and points of view of BioWare and mod NPCs, and reflect those in the conversations.

Getting the "voice" of each NPC right is challenging, moreso if you want to do the full spectrum of BG1 to BG2, because you've got 41 NPCs to do instead of 25 or 16. Yes, I'm counting recurring NPCs twice, because BG2 Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc/Edwin/Viconia is different from BG1 Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc/Edwin/Viconia. But if you read enough of their dialogue, you'll get it... mostly. I still have a tough time with Edwin and Viconia.

 

As for the mod NPCs, that will be easy, since you'll be doing crossmod with the modders themselves. They can tweak things to make their NPC sound more like their NPC.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the dialogues don't always have to be about Shaelina. Or about the other NPC. The banters I like best are those that have very little to do with either NPC, those that just seem to spring up from something they might have been talking about while walking along.

 

Yoshimo: Shaelina, mistress of forest lore, do you recognize that shrub, the one with the red berries?

Shaelina: Yes. It's a chokeberry bush. Why?

Yoshimo: And its berries... are they edible?

Shaelina: The birds love them, and dwarves can stomach them, I think, but they are no good for humans or elves.

Yoshimo: Ah. That explains it. Excuse me, please.

 

Let's face it, so many of the "Why did you become what you are?" banters have already been covered, or are discussed between the NPC and the PC directly.

 

And don't forget about arguments! They're a lot of fun, and they don't have to end in violence, or with someone leaving the party.

 

While everything I write is intended exclusively for use with BGII, I suppose it would be possible to apply content to BGI as well. Thank you for reminding me that I'll need to address game NPCs I don't deal with when playing the game. I can't simply ignore those NPCs, or short them on interaction. Agreed that it will be somewhat challenging to get their personalities down accurately in conversation. One thing that might make things easier, but perhaps also more limiting, is that Shaelina has never met any characters in the game before.

 

I like the Shaelina/Yoshimo example above. That's right along the lines of what I'd like for typical snippets :) Using what she knows, and asking about other characters and about the part of the world in which they're adventuring, moreso than talking about herself, is what I'd like as the focus for much of the content.

 

Agreed about arguments, as Shaelina's views are bound to clash with some of the other characters' POV on various issues.

 

Much, much work to do with this mod in the conversation department. Thanks so much for the ideas, and by all means keep 'em coming!

 

- E

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