Jump to content

What's in a name?


ericp07

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

The name Shaelina (shae = ocean, -lina = color (adj.)) no longer appears sufficient to me, as a Tolkien Elven (Sindarin) name that refers to the color of her eyes, because the eyes aren't mentioned in the name. The Elven word for eye is elee, and there are various options on how to make a word plural. I like elea as the plural "eyes," so I think Shaelina'elea would be a more accurate name with authentic Elf flavor.

 

How does this look? Is it too awkward? I placed the apostrophe in the name to separate vowel sounds, following Tolkien Elven grammar. It's kinda funny to me that I'm revisiting this after so long, but I'm early enough in developing the mod that there's less effort to change her name in the game files.

 

I welcome any and all commentary on this, and I apologize if I'm not posting to the most appropriate forum. I chose this one because I've been using it for all items related to my mod.

 

Thanks,

Eric

Link to comment

Elvish names aren't usually this complicated. They also don't end in an a, usualy. I can't think of a single one that does. Also, for names, you'd probably lose a vowel, rather than stick that ' in there.

 

There's some funny rules about what happens to vowels during pluralization. They all change, for one thing. The word "tower" is "barad", and "towers" is "beraid". If you want to say "the towers", it's "i meraid".

 

Also, in Sindarin, "eye" is "hend," not "ele" and it's plural is "hind". Which got me looking at a couple other things. Like the Sindarin word for "ocean", which is "aearon", not "shae", and color, for which I can't find a word at all. "Sea" is "aear", which would be more appropriate. Green is "calan" which might help, but most of the time, it undergoes lenition to galan.

 

Word order doesn't matter so much, so if you wanted to call her "Sea-green-eyes," she could be Galanaearhind or Hindaeaergalan or Aeargalanhind or even Aearhindgalan, though the last two don't really flow off the tongue, do they?

 

Who knew I'd get to trot out my old flashcards?

 

But you know, Galanaear and Aeargalan do have a nice Sindarin feel to them, if you just wanted to go back to your original plan, and call her sea-green.

 

Edit: Oooh, and there's a lovely tradition about female names in Sindarin. If you affix the word for "maiden," the name becomes Galanaearwen, and it's hard to get a better-sounding Sindarin name than that!

Link to comment

Deherianna ends with an "a." :) But I don't know elvish and its rules so maybe this one doesn't count.

I really hand it to you all who know these other languages. I have some learning disabilities I have struggled with all my life and I tell you English alone is quite enough for me!

Link to comment
Elvish names aren't usually this complicated. They also don't end in an a, usualy. I can't think of a single one that does. Also, for names, you'd probably lose a vowel, rather than stick that ' in there.

 

There's some funny rules about what happens to vowels during pluralization. They all change, for one thing. The word "tower" is "barad", and "towers" is "beraid". If you want to say "the towers", it's "i meraid".

 

Also, in Sindarin, "eye" is "hend," not "ele" and it's plural is "hind". Which got me looking at a couple other things. Like the Sindarin word for "ocean", which is "aearon", not "shae", and color, for which I can't find a word at all. "Sea" is "aear", which would be more appropriate. Green is "calan" which might help, but most of the time, it undergoes lenition to galan.

 

Word order doesn't matter so much, so if you wanted to call her "Sea-green-eyes," she could be Galanaearhind or Hindaeaergalan or Aeargalanhind or even Aearhindgalan, though the last two don't really flow off the tongue, do they?

 

Who knew I'd get to trot out my old flashcards?

 

But you know, Galanaear and Aeargalan do have a nice Sindarin feel to them, if you just wanted to go back to your original plan, and call her sea-green.

 

Edit: Oooh, and there's a lovely tradition about female names in Sindarin. If you affix the word for "maiden," the name becomes Galanaearwen, and it's hard to get a better-sounding Sindarin name than that!

 

Would you please tell me your source for all this? I wonder if the source I'm using is based not on Sindin, but on Quenya...hmmm...*checking a couple old dictionary files* OK, my Sindarin dictionary agrees on aearon, and green is galan, not calan (but there are probably variations). Eye shows as hen, not hend, but again, this being Elvish, there are probably variations.

 

Now, checking my Quenya dictionary, I find ear or aear for sea (but nothing for ocean), nothing for green, and nothing for eye.

 

My default source for Elvish words, grammar, phrases, etc. is a spreadsheet (I've mentioned it before) found on the Languages of Semberholme site (http://members.aol.com/semberholme/language.htm). That's where I got "-lina" as a suffix meaning "color of said object," but this is noted as the author's creation, and not Tolkien canon. The word for sea in the spreadsheet is "ear." However, that site has a link to another Sindarin grammar page (http://home.netcom.com/~heensle/lang/elvish/sindarin/sgram.html) that has some information in conflict with the spreadsheet. How can one be sure? It appears to me that adjectives follow the noun, but there also appears to be some liberty in the case of proper names.

 

I saw something that said to attach -il at the end of a word to denote female. My attempts to cobble together a name, from the information on the last page I cited above, that would refer to "eyes the color of the ocean," result in the following butchery: Hinthaearon or Hinthaaronil. With the second name there, an acute accent should be over the first letter "a" to denote a long vowel sound. I don't like either of these, though, and they're likely both wrong.

 

So, is there no Sindarin word "shae" and no suffix "-lina"? This has become distressing, as I've become very fond of the name Shaelina, but I don't want to use a meaningless name. I want to follow Sindarin convention, as the Copper Elves (AKA Wood Elves) of the Forgotten Realms speak an old dialect of Sindarin, established before Quenya influences made their way into the Elvish tongues spoken by the Silver and Gold Elves.

 

Of the examples you (Lady berelinde) provided, I do like Galanaearwen, even if it's a bit of a mouthful :) Thinking again about the female suffix -il, I come up with a variant in Galanaearil, but for some reason that doesn't look or feel quite right.

 

Clearly, some tweaking and refining is in order, and any further input is most welcome! I'll have to decide whether or not to impose my own ruling specific to the Copper Elves who inhabit the forest of Cormanthor, or even further localize to those of the Elven Court region of that forest.

 

Thanks,

Eric

Link to comment

The source for any knowledge I might have about elvish is Thorsten Renk's Pedin Edhellen, an online course for Sindarin. Have a link.

 

Here's a link to just the course document. This is a website I developed about the course. I was writing study guides for it, because I felt it was very difficult to learn a language without study questions and flashcards and all, and as there weren't any, I was writing them, while learning myself. In early 2005, after my father died, I became too distracted to carry on with it. I keep meaning to go back to it, but I haven't... yet. All this talk about it has rekindled my interest, though, so who knows what will happen, there.

 

And you are right. The word for green is calan, but when it's used in a sentence, it undergoes lenition, or softening, to galan. I spoke incorrectly before. If it was used first, it would be Calanaearwen, with the second placement, the lenited form, being Aeargalanwen. Does that illustrate it?

 

You might be right about hen being eye, because Amon Hen was the hill of seeing, and Amon Lhaw was the hill of hearing. I guess lhaw would be ear. Still, the plural would be hin, since the vowels undergo nasal mutation during pluralization, they don't get extra stuff tacked on to the end of the word, like in English.

 

Edit: and about Deheriana, it's Forgotten Realms elvish, not Sindarin. The two aren't very similar. Take the usage of K, X, and Z, three letters that often appear in Forgotten Realms elvish names, but never in Sindarin names. Since this is a mod for a Forgotten Realms game, you'd be able to get away with anything you choose. I like to use Sindarin names for my elvish characters, but I'm funny that way. It isn't cannon. It's just a quirk. I got the name for my in-development NPC, Haldamir, from an online name generator, though! It just had such a nice, authentic feel to it that I decided to use it, even though I know it isn't Forgotten Realms elvish.

Link to comment
The source for any knowledge I might have about elvish is Thorsten Renk's Pedin Edhellen, an online course for Sindarin. Have a link.

 

Here's a link to just the course document. This is a website I developed about the course. I was writing study guides for it, because I felt it was very difficult to learn a language without study questions and flashcards and all, and as there weren't any, I was writing them, while learning myself. In early 2005, after my father died, I became too distracted to carry on with it. I keep meaning to go back to it, but I haven't... yet. All this talk about it has rekindled my interest, though, so who knows what will happen, there.

 

And you are right. The word for green is calan, but when it's used in a sentence, it undergoes lenition, or softening, to galan. I spoke incorrectly before. If it was used first, it would be Calanaearwen, with the second placement, the lenited form, being Aeargalanwen. Does that illustrate it?

 

You might be right about hen being eye, because Amon Hen was the hill of seeing, and Amon Lhaw was the hill of hearing. I guess lhaw would be ear. Still, the plural would be hin, since the vowels undergo nasal mutation during pluralization, they don't get extra stuff tacked on to the end of the word, like in English.

 

Edit: and about Deheriana, it's Forgotten Realms elvish, not Sindarin. The two aren't very similar. Take the usage of K, X, and Z, three letters that often appear in Forgotten Realms elvish names, but never in Sindarin names. Since this is a mod for a Forgotten Realms game, you'd be able to get away with anything you choose. I like to use Sindarin names for my elvish characters, but I'm funny that way. It isn't cannon. It's just a quirk. I got the name for my in-development NPC, Haldamir, from an online name generator, though! It just had such a nice, authentic feel to it that I decided to use it, even though I know it isn't Forgotten Realms elvish.

 

Thank so much! I'll be checking through those Web sites you mentioned.

 

I wouldn't characterize all surface Elves in the Realms as speaking one language, as that's clearly not the case, but the Elvish name generator published in Dragon Magazine (I forget the issue number) bears little resemblance, if any, to any of Tolkien's Elvish. I don't find it sufficiently flowing. I'm not sure if that language was tied to any campaign setting, or if it was presented simply as something for people to use if they wished, wherever. I prefer to follow the suggestion that Sindarin and Quenya derivatives are spoken in Faerun.

 

Happy modding,

Eric

Link to comment

Sindarin nouns don't take their plurals by adding endings at all. The vowels change. See the barad=>beraid example. I'm not even sure aearon is really a word, or at least that it isn't a contrived word, but if it were, its plural would be messy, since it contains a dipthong followed by another vowel. Aeairyn would be its plural, I think, and I don't think you'd want to saddle players with a name that has seven letters but only two consonants.

 

Hinaear would do the job, because her eyes aren't the color of pural seas, just one. If you insisted on addin an ending, you could add wen, for maiden, or iel, whose meaning I forget at the moment. Most female names end in wen or iel, it seems. Il, in, etc. seem to be reserved for the boys.

 

Hinaearwen and Hinaeariel aren't bad.

 

aea is pronounced a-ah, with the first a pronounced like the a in bad, somewhere between the ay in lay and ah.

Link to comment

Just my two cents here; I was rather fond of Shaelina...had a pretty ring to it and I could actually pronounce it. :)

 

Technicalities don't mean much to me with names, and I'm not sure if they will to your future players, but even if you were to keep the name and focus less on the meaning behind it (unless it's a *huge* part of her story and affects events in the mod later on), I would still play the mod.

 

Hell, I got "Auren" off a *male* fantasy name generator. "Aseph" kept popping up in the NWN name generator so I just stuck with it.

 

Again, just my two cents and you needn't feel obligated to go by it at all.

Link to comment
Sindarin nouns don't take their plurals by adding endings at all. The vowels change. See the barad=>beraid example. I'm not even sure aearon is really a word, or at least that it isn't a contrived word, but if it were, its plural would be messy, since it contains a dipthong followed by another vowel. Aeairyn would be its plural, I think, and I don't think you'd want to saddle players with a name that has seven letters but only two consonants.

 

Hinaear would do the job, because her eyes aren't the color of pural seas, just one. If you insisted on addin an ending, you could add wen, for maiden, or iel, whose meaning I forget at the moment. Most female names end in wen or iel, it seems. Il, in, etc. seem to be reserved for the boys.

 

Hinaearwen and Hinaeariel aren't bad.

 

aea is pronounced a-ah, with the first a pronounced like the a in bad, somewhere between the ay in lay and ah.

 

Yes, I didn't mean "ending" as in to add an ending. I understand how plurals work (changing the vowels). You know, Sindarin bears an interesting resemblance to Cymraeg (Welsh language), and this pleases my Welsh heritage to no end :)

 

I thought that ae was pronouned like eye. I could get used to the correct pronunciation.

 

I do want to arrive at a name that's pronounceable. If I find a voice actress for creating a soundset, I'd like to find a way to incorporate the speaking of the character's name.

 

I like Hinaearwen and Hinaeariel very much! At the risk of complicating things, I could say that Shaelina is a sort of nickname or something. It is pronounced "Shy-LEE-nah." I'm going back and forth now between Hinaearwen and Hinaeariel; the first is easier to say, but the second one "feels" more Elven, to me. I don't suppose either would be better suited to people who speak Elvish in a slower, softer manner...? That's the characteristic dialect of Copper Elves in the Realms.

 

Diolch,

Eric

Link to comment
Just my two cents here; I was rather fond of Shaelina...had a pretty ring to it and I could actually pronounce it. :)

 

Technicalities don't mean much to me with names, and I'm not sure if they will to your future players, but even if you were to keep the name and focus less on the meaning behind it (unless it's a *huge* part of her story and affects events in the mod later on), I would still play the mod.

 

Hell, I got "Auren" off a *male* fantasy name generator. "Aseph" kept popping up in the NWN name generator so I just stuck with it.

 

Again, just my two cents and you needn't feel obligated to go by it at all.

 

No, the name won't play into the story any more than as an identifier. I have another character named Borndak Belegost, whose name definitely does have an active meaning in his life, but that's another story :D

 

Elves commonly get a birth name, then they choose a name for themselves at some point during their time growing up. Of course, a character could change names over time, but it's easiest to pick one and stick with it.

 

I'm really leaning toward Hinaearwen or Hinaeariel now...most likely Hinaeariel. The "aea" part might appear awkward at first, but I'm gaining a flow with it :D

 

Heh, this means I'll have to change all references of EP#Shae to EP#Hina in my files, but that's a simple matter.

 

Cheers,

Eric

Link to comment
There was a nice elven name generator on the now deceased DlabraddathNet that fit the names of canonic characters from FR.

 

Searching for DlabraddathNet found me a few links, but nothing with a name generator. I suspect the nature of the material has shifted. I have found some other fantasy name generators, though, including some that create Tolkienesque names.

 

- E

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...