In the shadow of Bhaal

[Icendoan]

Sure, but if I am making a powerful creature, I test with the killsword, but only if there is useage of MINHP1.

 

The summons are a distraction and are meant solely for the wearing down of resources of <CHARNAME>, and, perhaps, if I learn how to code and script properly, make a hard and normal version.

 

We had (AFAIK) scrapped the previous bosses, but I really like the idea of Liches and Skeletons for every single named thing you have killed. Well, perhaps not all, as that is amazingly complex and would lag like crazy.

 

Have the Solar as an ally? I mean, she expected Mellisan to fight <CHARNAME>, and not Bhaal forcing control, so she would be surprised and perhaps aid you.

 

I feel the game has too many quick fights, IE, ones that can be defeated quickly with rapid deployment of spells, especially at the higher levels. Ascension changes that a bit, with greater summons, but still, people have defeated Mellisan in less than 5 minutes.

 

Even as an awakened god, Bhaal is still a massively greater power than <CHARNAME>, as you do not have half of Bhaal's essence, though your portion was larger than most, it still wasn't greater than all the other spawn collected, so Bhaal should be as powerful as we have stated, perhaps getting more and more powerful as the time goes on.

 

It's finding someone who isn't already busy with things, I have no hope of trying to get Cam, he is throwing around schedules for tons of mods all the time, but if you could recommend someone to start working, that would be awesome.

 

Icen

 

Icen

[Gabrielle]

Bhaal is dead, leave it at that.

[Qwinn]

I actually like the idea of the mod in general, quite a bit. I agree that Amelyssan was a lousy endboss, I think there's probably a pretty fair consensus on that point, and it -does- seem silly that he wouldn't have a contingency plan against his priestess getting power hungry. I mean sheesh, it's not like -he-, of all people, wouldn't consider the possibility of powerful humans trying to take over a divine portfolio. I say go for it.

 

I think Bhaal's contingency plan deserves some work to make it credible and interesting though. Just having him pop in at her "moment of triumph" seems a little trite... I'd like to see some sort of exposition on just how he managed to do it. Some modified geas spell that she was unaware he had cast on her? Maybe it forces her to suicide, or murdering herself, which releases all her essence to him. Something like that. But just popping out of her like a stripper out of a cake and saying HAHAHA seems a bit boring to me. If you're going to do it, do it well The best way, in my mind, would be to come up with some creative way of working in the actions of the Five, and maybe even the PC himself, were "designed" to achieve that final result of Bhaal's recreation. Like, the destruction of Saradush was necessary or something like that.

 

Anyways. Having Bhaal set every critter you've ever killed in the game (well, every sentient one, that way you can leave out all the bears and wolves and stuff) is a neat concept, but I think it'd be terribly hard to execute properly. For one thing, don't forget that it's not just living critters that lag a system, every corpse on the ground consumes system resources. Way back in the day, when I was beta-testing a very early beta version of Quest Pack, I got involved in an infinite spawn scenario and, believe me, when you have enough corpses on the ground your system -will- start lagging hard. So unless you want to do an area transition between each of your waves of infinite kobolds and xvarts, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

The idea -is- kinda neat though. Consider this possibility: yes, all the xvarts you ever killed come back to haunt you, but not as 10 thousand xvarts, rather as a single mega-xvart animated by the souls of all the xvarts you ever killed, and they are -angry-. Same with a giant super-kobold, a giant super-gibberling, etc. Basically demon-versions of these monsters, powered and possessed by the strength of all the ones you've killed.

 

So the first wave he sends against you would consist of a super-powered giant-sized xvart, kobold, goblin, and gibberling. The next wave would be a giant gnoll, hobgoblin, half-ogre and ogre. And so on. And eventually, yes, a wave of named non-Bhaalspawn enemies would be cool too - or even a single Demogorgon type monster possessed by all the named humans you've killed, and alternately (even randomly) cursing you in their voices. Finish up with the three dragons from the SoA portion at the same time. And then Bhaal.

 

Between each wave, just apply a wish-spell version of rest-to-full-health automatically. The PC is attuned enough to the Murder essence at this point that he can use the life energy of those they're re-killing in these waves to revitalize the party. But actually resting for 8 hours during each of them would seem anticlimatic and dull, not to mention it's hard envisioning Bhaal -letting- you.

 

If there's an easy way to make "giant" versions of smaller mobs, then this could be done rather easily, I'd think. If someone wants to get more involved with it, they could tweak the giant figures to give them a demonic appearance (maybe just making them jet black or blood red). But you'll all have to chime in on whether it's a lame idea or not, I'm just throwing out what comes to me.

 

Qwinn

[jcompton]

You know, I've recently been missing some of the forms and conventions of the Old Days, so it's nice to see a good old fashioned "come write and implement my mod idea!" thread.

 

Also, Kulyok, please presume that I have issued rejoinders #23, #37, and #51 your way. I'm particularly disappointed to have to issue you #51.

[Kulyok]

// is impressed with #51. Gone to pour herself some vodka with trembling hands, muttering "I'm fired, I'm fired..."

[muffin-tacos]

Hey, this is a really interesting idea. I like the sound of this. I was always a bit cheesed off at the ending of ToB. Maybe that's why I don't like it much.

 

I wish you all the best of luck!

[Guest Guest]

Bhaal is dead, leave it at that.

 

In Baldur's Gate I and II, Bhaal was dead. In ToB you realized that Bhaal was dead and stupid.

 

This isn't a mod resurrect him as it is to restore his badness-factor -- and give the player the last fight that the previous games had done so well in preparing him/her for.

 

 

I actually like the idea of the mod in general, quite a bit. I agree that Amelyssan was a lousy endboss, I think there's probably a pretty fair consensus on that point, and it -does- seem silly that he wouldn't have a contingency plan against his priestess getting power hungry. I mean sheesh, it's not like -he-, of all people, wouldn't consider the possibility of powerful humans trying to take over a divine portfolio. I say go for it.

 

I think Bhaal's contingency plan deserves some work to make it credible and interesting though. Just having him pop in at her "moment of triumph" seems a little trite... I'd like to see some sort of exposition on just how he managed to do it. Some modified geas spell that she was unaware he had cast on her? Maybe it forces her to suicide, or murdering herself, which releases all her essence to him. Something like that. But just popping out of her like a stripper out of a cake and saying HAHAHA seems a bit boring to me. If you're going to do it, do it well The best way, in my mind, would be to come up with some creative way of working in the actions of the Five, and maybe even the PC himself, were "designed" to achieve that final result of Bhaal's recreation. Like, the destruction of Saradush was necessary or something like that.

 

You may be right, though I think it is mostly about execution -- having him act upon her moment of triumph could also underline that this was his plan all along, and that only Amelyssan's folly allowed her to believe herself succesful. What Bhaal needs in order to be restored is that his essence is sufficiently gathered and focused. Amelyssan gathers this essence in her own body, thinking that she will be able to tame it; yet doing so turns out to let Bhaal's soul take shape within her, whereupon a battle of the wills determines who shall be the new divinity. Needless to say, Bhaal proves to be the stronger one.

 

Anyways. Having Bhaal set every critter you've ever killed in the game (well, every sentient one, that way you can leave out all the bears and wolves and stuff) is a neat concept, but I think it'd be terribly hard to execute properly. For one thing, don't forget that it's not just living critters that lag a system, every corpse on the ground consumes system resources. Way back in the day, when I was beta-testing a very early beta version of Quest Pack, I got involved in an infinite spawn scenario and, believe me, when you have enough corpses on the ground your system -will- start lagging hard. So unless you want to do an area transition between each of your waves of infinite kobolds and xvarts, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

The idea -is- kinda neat though. Consider this possibility: yes, all the xvarts you ever killed come back to haunt you, but not as 10 thousand xvarts, rather as a single mega-xvart animated by the souls of all the xvarts you ever killed, and they are -angry-. Same with a giant super-kobold, a giant super-gibberling, etc. Basically demon-versions of these monsters, powered and possessed by the strength of all the ones you've killed.

 

So the first wave he sends against you would consist of a super-powered giant-sized xvart, kobold, goblin, and gibberling. The next wave would be a giant gnoll, hobgoblin, half-ogre and ogre. And so on. And eventually, yes, a wave of named non-Bhaalspawn enemies would be cool too - or even a single Demogorgon type monster possessed by all the named humans you've killed, and alternately (even randomly) cursing you in their voices. Finish up with the three dragons from the SoA portion at the same time. And then Bhaal.

 

Between each wave, just apply a wish-spell version of rest-to-full-health automatically. The PC is attuned enough to the Murder essence at this point that he can use the life energy of those they're re-killing in these waves to revitalize the party. But actually resting for 8 hours during each of them would seem anticlimatic and dull, not to mention it's hard envisioning Bhaal -letting- you.

 

If there's an easy way to make "giant" versions of smaller mobs, then this could be done rather easily, I'd think. If someone wants to get more involved with it, they could tweak the giant figures to give them a demonic appearance (maybe just making them jet black or blood red). But you'll all have to chime in on whether it's a lame idea or not, I'm just throwing out what comes to me.

 

 

Qwinn

 

That's a very good idea, especially to have Legion-type creatures complain in a thousand voices. That's just awesome. It would probably not be neccessary to make a special version for each type of race that you've slaughtered though, since that would be very time-consuming. How about using the Bone Golem animation, and renaming it "Heap of Victims" or something like that. Then it can speak like an entity, and wail over countless of different deaths and injustices as it lumbers towards you.

 

It would be an efficient solution for reducing the lag and so on, though you could still have a few spellcasting undead to represent the mages you've slain, and maybe a few individual skeletons named after minor characters -- just to get a sufficiently dynamic battle.

[Qwinn]

You may be right, though I think it is mostly about execution -- having him act upon her moment of triumph could also underline that this was his plan all along, and that only Amelyssan's folly allowed her to believe herself succesful. What Bhaal needs in order to be restored is that his essence is sufficiently gathered and focused. Amelyssan gathers this essence in her own body, thinking that she will be able to tame it; yet doing so turns out to let Bhaal's soul take shape within her, whereupon a battle of the wills determines who shall be the new divinity. Needless to say, Bhaal proves to be the stronger one.

 

Okay, fair enough.

 

That's a very good idea, especially to have Legion-type creatures complain in a thousand voices. That's just awesome. It would probably not be neccessary to make a special version for each type of race that you've slaughtered though, since that would be very time-consuming. How about using the Bone Golem animation, and renaming it "Heap of Victims" or something like that. Then it can speak like an entity, and wail over countless of different deaths and injustices as it lumbers towards you.

 

It would be an efficient solution for reducing the lag and so on, though you could still have a few spellcasting undead to represent the mages you've slain, and maybe a few individual skeletons named after minor characters -- just to get a sufficiently dynamic battle.

 

Glad you like my idea, yay

 

The bone golem thing would work fine too, if what I suggested isn't practical. Really, the key there will be writing the "legion" voices creatively, and perhaps even creative mixing of sound files to really give the effect I think we're both thinking of.

 

But I still like the idea of the megamobs. Would it really be that time consuming? I'm not a modder, so maybe I'm missing something, but aren't the attributes of the monsters set in hex or something at a specific position in each file? I'd think for a clever coder it wouldn't take more than a few hours to take all the files detailing the various monsters we'd want to do this for (.cre's, right?), rename and copy them, and then write a script that would hack into each file and modify the same hex code in the position that determines the critter's size? Yes, no? Same thing for color?

 

Then again, there's probably a good reason there's no Enlarge or Reduce Person spell in the game, and it's nowhere near as easy as I'm making it sound. Heh. So if that's the case, never mind, and bone golems is just fine Good writing of the legions will make that a perfectly viable option though.

 

Qwinn

[Hide and Seek]

I know the idea about an undead army is high up on the list, but how about this:

 

First, we have Bhaal.

 

Then we have have all those demons he can summon (Amelyssan style).

 

Then we have his servants that might still be alive (the Bhaal Priests discussing the PC's fate after SoA). I reckon Bhaal should have power enough when awake to resurrect his favored warriors, even if it is as undead. A party of Bhaal's favored, along with Bhaal himself.

 

And last.. should Bhaal be.. unstable? Surely, if he was a true God at the point, would the PC and the party stand the shadow of a chance? Cyric could have killed the PC just like that, but didn't dare to interfere due to Ao and Mystra.

[Icendoan]

I think Ao and Mystra haven't a clue about this.

 

How about having both an undead army and a party of Bhaal's favoured.

 

The favoured is emulating Cyric's encounter a bit too much, I feel.

 

As to the exposition, I am writing an extensive dialogue (and I have finally got my head round .D files , and the options are simple, his CRE is hostile, and either you EXIT or your PC dies)

 

Icen

[cmorgan]

Icendoan this is my first visit to a mod forum for BG2 but I'd be really interested in finding out how to get at the code of the game. I'm sufficiently experienced with programming to make my own little isometric 2d games, primitive as they might be, but I've never figured out how to modify a game that doesn't supply its source code. What is the process for moding a game like BG2, are there decompilers somewhere that can be used. Any links would be nice, as too I agree that the ToB ending failed to tie the knot on the epic thread that was the BG saga.

 

 

 

It is easier than you would think - if I can do it, just about anyone can. The "decompiler" is all one step removed from source code; the bigg at http://forums.pocketplane.net/ works on the tool that does all the heavy lifting (WeiDU.exe) and there is a resource listing everything known about the mechanics and scripting possibilities/animations/opcodes/etc. here built by igi with input from all i.e. communities at http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/.

 

This site has extensive tutorials , and an active and supportive modder base which often works collaboratively (I suspect most folks are not chiming in to this thread because no one wants to dampen the enthusiasm - we would love another group of folks diving in and creating/expanding content, but when you folks start writing, there will be plenty of helping hands available when you ask )

 

SpellHoldStudios and Pocketplane both also have good tutorial resources and active modders who answer questions and often volunteer to help. Ther is a fair amount of crossover between the three boards, too, so help is always a click awa (just remember, it is an international community, so sometimes you post a question, and it gets answered in minutes; sometimes it takes a time zone change, and sometimes it takes days or weeks, if you asked a particularly tough question and someone has to drop over to Italy and wake the bigg up and get him to stop all that stupid studying stuff/passing courses stuff and make him pay attention to *really* important things).

 

 

So far, except for animation changes, which are boh incredibly time consuming/problemmatic and also require replacing an existing animation (so probably not a good idea) there is nothing stopping any of these ideas from being implemented except, time, energy, and drive - it sounds like a pretty darned good idea.

[Icendoan]

I am still learning, and I find the first bit really hard, but once I got some of the basics I can now read and understand .D files and most of the TP2s. IESDP is a very good place to start, even if igi has misdocumented some things...

 

The main advantage of programming is being able to adapt to a new language. This is helping me greatly in learning some "proper" languages and not WeiDU all the time

 

Does anyone know offhand what the dialogue input is to kill the PC, would it be something like Death(<CHARNAME>)?

 

Icen

[Hide and Seek]

I think Ao and Mystra haven't a clue about this.

Certainly, not about Bhaal's plan, but then again, who knows what the Gods might think. We only know about Bhaals plan and Cyrics dislike of another Lord/Lady of Murder. It seems Ao and Mystra are yet satisfied with watching. (but in the end, the Gods themselves decides that the business is done and over, despite Amelyssans protests)

 

The favoured is emulating Cyric's encounter a bit too much, I feel.

I tip my hat here, you're right, it would. Though facing Bhaal and five-ten immense strong demons (like the Fallen Solar) would still be cool. Many enemies are good, but strong enemies even better.

[Icendoan]

That was my original idea, you have a timer, and for that, Bhaal is invincible. This is while he casts blinding spells, contagion, feeblemind, poision and lowers you AC while you are facing hordes of monsters.

 

Icen

[Guest Paradox]

I actually like the idea of the mod in general, quite a bit. I agree that Amelyssan was a lousy endboss, I think there's probably a pretty fair consensus on that point, and it -does- seem silly that he wouldn't have a contingency plan against his priestess getting power hungry. I mean sheesh, it's not like -he-, of all people, wouldn't consider the possibility of powerful humans trying to take over a divine portfolio. I say go for it.

 

I think Bhaal's contingency plan deserves some work to make it credible and interesting though. Just having him pop in at her "moment of triumph" seems a little trite... I'd like to see some sort of exposition on just how he managed to do it. Some modified geas spell that she was unaware he had cast on her? Maybe it forces her to suicide, or murdering herself, which releases all her essence to him. Something like that. But just popping out of her like a stripper out of a cake and saying HAHAHA seems a bit boring to me. If you're going to do it, do it well The best way, in my mind, would be to come up with some creative way of working in the actions of the Five, and maybe even the PC himself, were "designed" to achieve that final result of Bhaal's recreation. Like, the destruction of Saradush was necessary or something like that.

 

I've been thinking about what you said, Qwinn, of the need to make things more credible and interesting -- and I realize that I fully agree with you. Bhaal is not the only character that became overly simplified in ToB, Amelyssan is as well. To change Bhaal so he counts on her treachery will redeem him, but Amelyssan will still remain an odd caricature of a villain. I've been looking through some of the dialogue files, and found a line that oddly enough seems to be Amelyssan in a nutshell. It is in her own words:

 

"I lied to my master, Bhaal, and have scratched and clawed my way after his death to turning the essences of his children to serve me! I deserve to be a god and you shall NOT stand in my way, I assure you!"

 

This is the extent of depth Amelyssan has in ToB. She is little more than a raving megalomaniac who has taken advantage of a foolish god, and even if we changed the god so he wasn't foolish -- well, then she would only look even more moronic. I say we should aim not only at redeeming Bhaal, but also develop the relationship that is between Bhaal and Amelyssan, so that she can have more credible ambitions and motivations than her lust for power.

 

How could we make this relationship more interesting, how could we give both Bhaal and Amelyssan more nuance and dimensions? Well, we know that Amelyssan was Bhaal's greatest Deathstalker. I don't think that is a job you're looking for unless you have had some very dark tragedy in your past. Amelyssan deserves to have a deeper storyline than she has. I'm not saying that we should make a biography for her, but at the very end, let <CHARNAME> get a glimpse of what lies behind her cold facade, what motivations hide beneath her mask of masks.

 

At some point, something drove her into the servitude of the Lord of Murder. Perhaps she sought vengeance, strength, even comfort in Bhaal -- but regardless, an evil entity like Bhaal is not someone you deal with lightly. Similarly to making a pact with the devil, Bhaal takes a toll of his servants, and certainly he is not likely to let them go once they have come under his influence.

 

Perhaps Amelyssan the Blackhearted was not always so much without remorse -- sociopaths are rare and far in between in reality. Perhaps she was not always convinced of the Faith she had entangled herself with, though her abilities did make her rise to favor. I say, let Bhaal have put his mark upon her, a brand that sears into the very soul -- a bond that no mortal can unravell... But perhaps a God.

 

This is the line that Bhaal delivers when he is summoned by the Solar:

"To my most trusted Deathstalker did I entrust the secrets of my resurrection."

and then,

"And so you have betrayed me, Amelyssan the Blackhearted. The time draws nigh and yet you perform no rites."

 

What would happen though, if we simply changed this tiny exchange, into this:

"Foolish Amelyssan... Do you believe that you can escape my reach? I am the rot that courses through your veins, I am the crack that grows across your mind, the poison in your blackened heart. There is no cure, Amelyssan. You were always mine."

and then,

"In the fever of your dreams, you know that this is true."

 

Suddenly something new is revealed to the player, very indirectly. He glimpses a facett in Amelyssan's relationship with Bhaal that has previously been unknown. It sounds as if she is ill, as if she is wasting away. Bhaal, it appears, has long ago put his leash around her throat, and his contagion remains in her even when he is dead. Now she seeks to rid herself of his influence; she seeks not Godhood for the sake of power, but rather to escape the malady that He has inflicted upon his faltering servant. The geas that was once meant to assure her loyalty now drives her to work against Bhaal, to assume his power and be free of his embrace.

 

Unfortunately, this is what Bhaal planned.

 

Amelyssan is not the harpy queen that she seems; underneath the surface, she has , like <CHARNAME>, always been fighting an inner battle against the dark god who has toyed so with their lives. Her will and her body is failing her -- even while she desperately seeks to gather the essence of her former master, she is growing weaker by the illness he has caused in her. He has made her desperation for a cure into the tool for his Rebirth. In this, the Lord of Murder is truly a sinister creature.

 

Amelyssan is no longer a unsympathetic and inhuman maniac. No, she is perhaps the one who has suffered the worst tragedy of all.

 

I think that would make the story most interesting.