In the shadow of Bhaal

[Sorrow]

Then why is she called Blackhearted? It sounds pretty sociopathic to me. Also, villains with a tragic past are a terrible cliche.

[Icendoan]

Or we could keep to the mad power-craze, and develop it. Why did she go to Bhaal, because death fascinated her, and she's a megolamaniac.

 

Actually, that doesn't sound as good now...

 

Icen

[Guest Paradox]

Then why is she called Blackhearted? It sounds pretty sociopathic to me. Also, villains with a tragic past are a terrible cliche.

 

She is called Blackhearted because she has done some very depraved things and earned the name. Make no mistake; she's evil, corrupted and dangerous, but now she just has some reason to be -- rather than simply having been born a grim reaper.

 

A cliche? Hardly more than the sociopathic and megalomaniac villain -- which are quite common in cartoons. Think Turtles or Dino Riders.

 

A villain with a tragic past runs the risk of seeming a caricature when overdone, but as I said, we shouldn't delve too deeply into Amelyssan's past. Just drop the hint that her position has not been so simple as it might seem.

 

This way we could also keep 1. the ending cinematic, in which Amelyssan is again in control of herself, desperately seeking her salvation -- possible after the player character manages to weaken Bhaal's hold over her -- and 2. the Solar's dialogue where she is regretful about having to destroy Amelyssan's soul -- a sentiment which only seems more appropriate considering Amelyssan's corruption at the hands of Bhaal.

 

Not only do I think that this ending would give more closure to the Saga, but it would also give everything that has happened a wider sense of meaning. It is tying together the red threads that Bioware has left us with.

[Icendoan]

I am currently in the writing phase of the dialogues, so, I would PM you with it, Paradox, if you would register

 

Icen

[Paradox]

I am currently in the writing phase of the dialogues, so, I would PM you with it, Paradox, if you would register

 

Icen

 

Done and done. I'm very interested in seeing what you've got.

[Icendoan]

Still needs touching up, and I'm afriad its in .D format, so you are going to have to be able to read that...

 

I could turn it into plain text if you want, and it still needs finishing.

 

I also plan to learn some scripting for this mod.

 

Icen

[Qwinn]

Perhaps Amelyssan the Blackhearted was not always so much without remorse -- sociopaths are rare and far in between in reality.

 

Heh. If only.

 

I don't mind Amelyssan being as one dimensionally evil as she is, because sociopaths very often are. And honestly, I hate the current pop trend of always having to generate sympathy for the devil while introducing flaws into every hero (see Beowulf). I'm more concerned with moving Bhaal out of the "stupid evil" category. Amelyssan can take his place there far as I'm concerned

 

Qwinn

[Icendoan]

Hmm, I don't really mind Mellisan being so evil and powercrazed, but if you look at Irenicus, and Sarevok to a lesser extent, they all have stories behind them, much more so than the pathetic dialogue from the Solar for Mellisan.

 

We don't have to add as much information as with the others, as the point is to place Bhaal as the main enemy, but it could be hinted, though just enough to spark the imagination, that Mellisan had an interesting past.

 

Icen

[Sorrow]

We don't have to add as much information as with the others, as the point is to place Bhaal as the main enemy, but it could be hinted, though just enough to spark the imagination, that Mellisan had an interesting past.

 

Icen

Note that her interesting past could look like this:

Mellisan was born in a peasant family. She was a cruel and manipulating child. When she was 6, she murdered her younger brother, because he took her doll. She went home like nothing happened. When her parents discovered the body, Mellisan told them that she saw her brother playing with bad behaving boys and everyone thought that they murdered him.

When she was 8, she strangled her female friend because she annoyed her. She was caught, but was saved by a local agent of Bhaal.

Then she was taught in a nearby secret temple. Her ruthlessness allowed her to advance in ranks of Bhaals clergy.

She killed a lot of people, including her parents.

[Icendoan]

It would need fleshing out a bit more and it wouldn't be told in a storylike manner, but more of a "She should have realised I had her entangled in my web since she slew her brother!" type feel.

 

Icen

[Icendoan]

Arrrgh!

 

Posted in the wrong thread!

 

Icen

[Paradox]

Perhaps Amelyssan the Blackhearted was not always so much without remorse -- sociopaths are rare and far in between in reality.

 

Heh. If only.

 

Sounds like you have quite the ominous past there.

 

I don't mind Amelyssan being as one dimensionally evil as she is, because sociopaths very often are. And honestly, I hate the current pop trend of always having to generate sympathy for the devil while introducing flaws into every hero (see Beowulf). I'm more concerned with moving Bhaal out of the "stupid evil" category. Amelyssan can take his place there far as I'm concerned

 

Qwinn

 

The pop trend, as you call it, is annoying when the author gets in the reader's face and insists upon pity. Let's not do that. But there's no reason to make Amelyssan one-dimensional just because the trend is to make more complex characters. Most people are pretty complex, even generally bad people. To say that a hero with flaws or a villain with qualities is artificial and unrealistic is nothing but our wish for things to be simple and easy to categorize -- it's much more comfortable to be able to fully hate the villain, and absolutely adore the hero. Needless to say, I don't think a trend is bad because it's popular; a move towards nuance is good in my book. To a degree, it counteracts our inclination to prejudice and ego-centric perspectives.

 

Note that her interesting past could look like this:

Mellisan was born in a peasant family. She was a cruel and manipulating child. When she was 6, she murdered her younger brother, because he took her doll. She went home like nothing happened. When her parents discovered the body, Mellisan told them that she saw her brother playing with bad behaving boys and everyone thought that they murdered him.

When she was 8, she strangled her female friend because she annoyed her. She was caught, but was saved by a local agent of Bhaal.

Then she was taught in a nearby secret temple. Her ruthlessness allowed her to advance in ranks of Bhaals clergy.

She killed a lot of people, including her parents.

 

It could look like that, but would the Solar truly be regretful about destroying such a wretched creature? To be honest, there is nothing more worthy of saving in Amelyssan than in Bhaal himself, if that was to be her nature. She is just pure condensed evil. It would be a triumph for good and justice through and through to destroy them both in one blow.

 

I prefer not mentioning so much about her past, but rather hint that Bhaal has laid claim to her soul, and that she -- for her own reasons -- seeks to free herself. Of course she will also seek the sheer power of godhood, but the path that led her to this situation was not always so straight. (It is not a plan that has been with her long, nor was she born a ready candidate for the Deathstalkers)

 

She's evil now though, so it makes no difference in the end. But at least there is something to regret about how her fate turned out -- which the player needn't be told about. The celestial knows it, though, and so we needn't tweak her dialogue so much.

[Qwinn]

My thoughts:

 

The pop trend, as you call it, is annoying when the author gets in the reader's face and insists upon pity. Let's not do that.

 

Good.

 

Most people are pretty complex, even generally bad people.

On this, we disagree. Most people are deceptively simple, complex people just tend to overwrite the reality with their expectations.

To say that a hero with flaws or a villain with qualities is artificial and unrealistic is nothing but our wish for things to be simple and easy to categorize -- it's much more comfortable to be able to fully hate the villain, and absolutely adore the hero.

Well, sure, and why would one wish it to be different? Is the goal to make the player uncomfortable?

 

I mean, let's face it. Killing pixels, in the broader view, is a pretty substanceless activity. Being made to feel -badly- about killing those pixels doesn't give it substance, it just makes the player feel bad.

 

Let's add intelligence and plot, yes. But I'd prefer not to go overboard on "there's no such thing as black and white" preachiness, as the real world is chock full of it, often erroneously. If there was ever a proper place for black and white, it's in a fantasy role playing game of champions and villains.

 

Needless to say, I don't think a trend is bad because it's popular;

No, but as sorrow put it, "villains with a tragic past are a terrible cliche." Actual evil villains without any redeeming or sympathetic qualities have become less cliche by simple virtue of the pop trend in question.

a move towards nuance is good in my book. To a degree, it counteracts our inclination to prejudice and ego-centric perspectives.

I consider myself to be a fairly complex person, and as such I believe nuance is vastly overrated. In the same way you don't believe "just because something is popular doesn't mean it's bad", I believe "just because something is complex doesn't mean it's good". In fact, I think simplicity can itself be a virtue. Programmers, engineers and modders probably grok that statement better than most

 

I don't strongly disagree with any of your suggestions in your following paragraphs, though. My response is more about writing and characterization in general than about this mod specifically.

 

Qwinn

[Icendoan]

But, short of changing the entire game, but mostly ToB, you are not going to get villians with histories. This is not about making Ammellysan a pitied creature, it is about making Bhaal the engame.

 

We would try to flesh out her story, though, and, if possible, some of the Five as well. The only member of the Five with any hinted history is Yaga Shura via Nyalee.

 

Icen

[Paradox]

My thoughts:

 

Most people are pretty complex, even generally bad people.

On this, we disagree. Most people are deceptively simple, complex people just tend to overwrite the reality with their expectations.

 

That is not even an empirical generalization. That's the prejudice I mentioned; and it springs from the ego-centric perspective that enables you to assess that you yourself are a pretty complex person, whilst *others* are not. This is because you have access to not only your own behavior, but also the emotional world that lies behind it. With others, you have access only to their behavior -- which often seems simple enough, taken by itself.

 

I say it is no empirical generalization because you have no true empirical way of knowing other peoples emotional worlds; empirical information in the end amounting to nothing but sheer experience.

 

An empirical generalization would be if you assumed that others were pretty much as complex as you yourself, since you can observe that you belong to the same species and live in roughly the same environment.

 

To say that "Most people are deceptively simple", is without foundation, because you make the judgment based solely on your ability to observe behavior, not emotion.

 

This is exactly why I believe that literature, movies etc, can develop us as human beings, because we become a third party with access to the characters' behaviors *and* their emotional worlds.

 

To say that a hero with flaws or a villain with qualities is artificial and unrealistic is nothing but our wish for things to be simple and easy to categorize -- it's much more comfortable to be able to fully hate the villain, and absolutely adore the hero.

Well, sure, and why would one wish it to be different? Is the goal to make the player uncomfortable?

 

I mean, let's face it. Killing pixels, in the broader view, is a pretty substanceless activity. Being made to feel -badly- about killing those pixels doesn't give it substance, it just makes the player feel bad.

 

Killing pixels is indeed without substance. That is why a good computer game makes you forget that it is just, in the broader view, killing pixels. Good computer games achieve this through an intriguing story, a vibrant game world, and characters that have emotions and minds of their own. That is not making the player feel bad about killing pixels, its making the player feel -- and hopefully more than sheer glee at killing mean pixels. Computer games are a powerful medium in that it can free us from our ego-centric perspectives and actually let us witness how other people, just as complex as we, face challenges which they overcome or succumb to.

 

Let's add intelligence and plot, yes. But I'd prefer not to go overboard on "there's no such thing as black and white" preachiness, as the real world is chock full of it, often erroneously. If there was ever a proper place for black and white, it's in a fantasy role playing game of champions and villains.

 

I think you are wrong about the black and white part, and I've stated why. However, I do not disagree with your opinion to add intelligence and plot while sparing the player a preaching. I never had it in my in mind to preach about shades of gray and insist that the player meditate upon Amelyssan's fate. I only intended to add intelligence to the plot, which includes giving Amelyssan more believable motivations and emotions.

 

Needless to say, I don't think a trend is bad because it's popular;

No, but as sorrow put it, "villains with a tragic past are a terrible cliche." Actual evil villains without any redeeming or sympathetic qualities have become less cliche by simple virtue of the pop trend in question.

 

It needn't be a tragic past, it could simply be a varied past, which has allowed her to develop a range of emotions -- like most human beings do. The cliche, I believe, is having her be nothing but a power-hungry bogeyman with an echoing laughter. I can understand your concern if you feared that I intended to turn Baldur's Gate into a sob-story for Amelyssan's sake.

 

I don't, however. In fact, her background would never truly become known to the player.

 

In the same way you don't believe "just because something is popular doesn't mean it's bad", I believe "just because something is complex doesn't mean it's good". In fact, I think simplicity can itself be a virtue. Programmers, engineers and modders probably grok that statement better than most

 

I fully agree with your sentiment of keeping things simple. This mod could and probably should be done completely through dialogue changes at first, because the possibility is there -- and it is only the conversations before and during the final battle that needs to change, ie in the Pocket Plane and in the Throne of Blood. The mod can then be improved through spicing up Bhaal and his abilities etc.