Planescape Modding/Analysis Help

[Qwinn]

EDIT: (Yes, I changed the title, and removed stupid questions. No point making people read useless crap and my idiotic questions that I figure out on my own).

 

Okay, let me start by explaining my goal.

 

I'm currently running through Planescape Torment. In the game I'm playing, I installed the official 1.1 patch, then the Fixpack 1.37, then the Fixpack 1.37beta (aka 1.38), then the Restoration Pack, then a couple of other mods which I don't think have a bearing on all this.

 

That seemed to be the suggested install order from what I could find in research. And, naturally, I got bit in the ass for it, heh. Turned out that Fixpack fixed some serious bugs, and Restoration Pack overwrote them. (oh, my kingdom for WeiDUized versions, but oh well, not gonna happen I don't think). So, a good long while into my game, I was unable to finish a couple of major quests due to a key fix being overwritten, and had to replay a hell of a lot of it in order to evade the problem.

 

IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS OF THE BUG THAT NAILED ME: There's a fix in the fixpack described thus: "If you caught Yellow-Fingers stealing from you and Morte was in your party there was a certain dialog path that could lead into Sharegrave's dialog, messing up the quest to find the source of Pharod's bodies for him." My Pharod quests from both Sharegrave and Emoric did indeed get messed up as a result of talking to Yellow Fingers first. The fix is in the file DMORTE.DLG, and it is overwritten by Restoration Pack because that mod adds "Morte's original intro!"

 

Anyways, back on topic: I have a hungering now to figure out all the mod conflicts between these two mods, since both are good mods but neither has been worked on in a very long time and no one seems interested in modding/fixing PS:T anymore. So, given all that, I want to figure out the optimal install order, along with a list of which files to let one mod overwrite the other and which ones to say "No" to when it asks to overwrite. And then I could share my findings with everyone. Sound good?

 

Anyways, so, the two mods both make changes to the following files:

 

NTOKEN.ITM

DDAKKON.DLG

DEBB.DLG

0510VALT.BCS

DEMORIC.DLG

DJUSTFER.DLG

NORDXBOW.ITM

DMARISSA.DLG

DABLE.DLG

DNORDOM.DLG

0404FELL.BCS

DMORTE.DLG

3001GRD5.BCS

 

So, if folks would be kind enough to kindly peek in once in a while and help me out when I run into problems, I'd really appreciate it. Once I get the hang of this sort of thing, I definitely would like to produce some mods for the community in thanks

 

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay - 1st question. And I apologize for their n00bishness.

 

1) Is there any tool out there that allows you to compare similar files? Like, if I have a .DLG file, and a modified version of it, is there a tool that will let me quickly compare the two and point me more specifically to where changes were made, rather than having to eyeball hundreds of lines?

 

I had another bunch of questions trying to figure out how .DLG files work and pass pointers back and forth to each other, but I think I figured it out: it's -all- in the responses, ok, yay, back to work...

 

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Another question, looking forward to the end of all this:

 

I'm totally passionate about this now, lol, I've actually found some bugs just by looking at the dialogue files that -neither- mod fixed, and rather than just picking an install order I plan on producing my own fixpack, so to speak. It's a fantastic little project for my real goal, which is to learn how to mod, and I already know a ton of things I didn't two hours ago, heh.

 

So here's my question. I'm using the fixpack and the restoration pack as reference points only for the sake of telling me where the bugs are, finding what they changed and then looking over everything related to see if I can find additional issues (and in a couple cases, already have). Really in some cases I'm not even looking at their files, just their readmes to point me in the right direction, and then making my changes to the original unmodded version, and doing my own fix. For the time being, I'm just saving my modified versions to a new directory, but in the long run I plan on having created my own version of all the fixes and restorations (if I approve, I don't always) all in one sweet package - and maybe, in the long run, once I learn how - a WeiDUized version . And if no one else in the world ever gets to use it, well, alright, it'll just be for my own pleasure. This game's just too good to have any bugs left standing, heh.

 

Just to emphasize the point: I'm not just copying the two mod's fixes, but I am using them as reference points for identifying what bugs there are. (I'm also going to various planescape boards and seeing if there's any other bugs reported I could squash). I'm not just slapping the two mods together, I'm basically redoing all of the fixes and restorations from scratch.

 

So: that said, what are my obligations to the original modders if I -did- want to release this someday? I have absolutely -no- problem with giving them full and loud credit for all their hard work and inspiration and pointers to the problems in whatever readme I compile when I'm done, but is that sufficient? Do I have to get these guy's formal permissions to release my own fixpack publically, if I do down the line? Some of them haven't been seen or heard from in quite a few years (heh, Platter even gets referred to as the Silent King these days).

 

It's more of a political and legal question than a modding question, at this point, but I have to admit it would improve my already great deal of motivation quite a bit if I knew I could share all this work with the world someday

 

Qwinn

[Taimon]

1) Is there any tool out there that allows you to compare similar files? Like, if I have a .DLG file, and a modified version of it, is there a tool that will let me quickly compare the two and point me more specifically to where changes were made, rather than having to eyeball hundreds of lines?

Decompile them with WeiDU and use a diff-like program. (e.g. WinMerge on Windows).

[Qwallath]

Oof, it's a long read, and I'll have to go through it again later, but here's some comments:

 

-Yay, PS:T! It's great to see someone with heart for this game and willing to clean existing issues up.

 

-As for as mod ownership issues go, I'd try and find out who wrote the original thing (I can't recall at the moment) and simply ask them if they would be OK with a WeiDU-ised merged version of their fixes.

 

-I was inspired by your call for text comparison, as it's a utility that I would find very useful. I first did a google for "side by side text comparison", and came up with some programs. But then I thought 'hey, I'm using ConTEXT already (which REALLY helps your modding if you install WeiDU highlighters - I'll look them up), why not see if that has text comparison as well. And it does! It's under the "tools" tab.

 

cheers,

 

Oscar

[Qwinn]

Thanks for the responses so far! I'll try out those diffing tools.

 

My playthrough for my current game is at a total crawl now, lol, because every couple minutes I'm skipping out to the .DLG files to see if there's any interesting stuff that I couldn't get in normal conversations. And I -have- been finding some very interesting things.

 

Here's an example, which looks pretty cool to me as a potential restoration. I've never seen it in game, but then I don't think I've ever met the conditions before. However, none of the walkthroughs I've consulted mention it either, so maybe it really is something that needs restoring:

 

SPOILER warning, just to be safe:

 

There's an interesting character in the Buried Village named Ojo. None of the walkthroughs seem to have any information about him besides the obvious: he tells you he talks to a "rat" in the wall all the time and that the rat bit him, but he won't give you any more details. Dan Simpson's walkthrough doesn't even mention Ojo at all, and other walkthroughs request information about him. From the dialog files, he's apparently talking to a wererat. And there's dialog in his file that indicates that if you meet the right conditions, the wererats invade and kill or turn into wererats everyone in the Buried Village! And Ojo himself will get turned into a wererat, the only person apparently remaining in the Buried Village when you come back to it! And with poor stats, Ojo will turn into a wererat and attack you before you can leave him The conditions for this appear to be if you tell Many-Of-One or Mantuok that the Silent King is just a dead skeleton, or you bluff them that the Silent King is just too strong and shouldn't be attacked. Has anyone ever seen this happen?

 

If so, then eh, just something cool that a lot of people have missed, apparently.

 

If not, and it really is prevented from happening somehow, there's also a check for the global "alley_pregnant" to be set to 2 in Ojo's dialog - the only check in -any- dialog file for that variable - so maybe this is what's blocking the event.

 

So here's my next question: Has any tool been devised to look into .GAM files (saved games) for PS:T? It's a big deal for my project, because PS:T doesn't have a CLUA console, and I therefore have no in-game way to check the value of variables, and checking the value in a saved game file is therefore probably my only option. Opening a torment.gam file in a text editor, I can find the string "alley_pregnant" in there, so the variable is being set, but I don't see the value - what I see is a huge list of tons of global variable -names-, but not their values. And distressingly, the IESDP doesn't contain a .GAM version relevant to PS:T, so even if there is a .GAM editor for most IE games, it may well not work for PS:T, but I'd certainly like to try.

 

EDIT: Since posting, I found a whole bunch of save game editors available for PS:T. Unfortunately, none of them let you see the values of global variables within that save game, they only let you modify the characters. So, take that into account The good news is, some of the editors I found did say they were for PS:T -and- other IE games like Baldur's Gate, so if there's one out there for BG, good chance it'll work for me too.

 

EDIT2: Yay! Found one! If anyone else looks for something similar, it's called Infinity Engine Savegame Editor by Guillaume, and I got it at:

 

http://www.bootstrike.com/Torment/hints.html

 

That's gonna make a WHOLE lot more possible

 

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay... *gulp*

 

Okay. I've decided if this is even going to be worth doing, then better start doing it WeiDUized from the start. And I now know a -lot- more about WeiDU than I did 24 hours ago. Hopefully I'll be submitting my first WeiDU fix for constructive criticism in this post within a day or two

 

I have to ask, though... from what I'm learning, it appears to me that WeiDU is primarily geared toward modifying dialogues, and that's it. Other sorts of file, like .ARE's and .ITM's, can technically be WeiDUized, but only by essentially hex editing them in the .tp2 knowing the position and value that needs to be replaced, and using one or another version of WRITE_LONG. Would this be correct? Any tools to make that easier?

 

Okay, I'll be more specific. An important fix I've found out there adds a whole bunch of new vertexes to a trigger in a .ARE file. I actually tried editing those changes into an existing save game .ARE with Near Infinity, and it worked great. But how would I WeiDUize such a thing? I could probably puzzle out how to modify the points of an existing vertex with a WRITE_LONG or something, but adding new vertexes to an existing trigger...? :/

 

*sigh* Unfortunately, my previous programming experience really didn't require me to become proficient in hex editing

 

Oh, question #2. The .DLG files I'm looking at, every state and each response has a stringref#, and they're all sequential. If I do an append to a state early in the file, what happens to all the stringrefs that follow? Does it resequence them? Or will the stringrefs be out of order after that point? If those are essentially just /* remarks */ that have no function at all and aren't even compiled, that's a sufficient answer EDIT: Hmmm, I'm now thinking the answer is: You never append to a state early in a file, all appends are, duh, added to the end. You can modify or add transitions (which includes responses?) to early states, but actual new states get added to the end, and there's no real reason you'd need to do it otherwise. Correct? Sorry for being such a n00b.

 

Qwinn

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

Hi. It sound like some of the leads your looking at I've already worked on. You might be interested in looking at my All Inclusive Pack. I kept a long list of changes I made which might be useful to learn from.

 

Last update I did was 20070929

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FBBVJLHC

 

I've been slowly working on another update. I don't have a permanent home for it and post updates on GameFAQs where I provide help and watch for new problems to be posted.

 

Ojo himself will get turned into a wererat... Has anyone ever seen this happen?

This is one of the unimplemented ideas that wasn't completed by the time the game was released. There doesn't seem to be enough content to enable it.

 

An important fix I've found out there adds a whole bunch of new vertexes to a trigger in a .ARE file.

Sounds like you found my Lowden fix.

[Kulyok]

@SKARDAVNELNATE: Have you considered getting more permanent hosting for your mod? Because my first reaction is to add your mod to the PS:T section of the modlist, but megaupload location does look a bit too temporary.

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

I've thought about it but I wonder about making updates to it. For now I upload a new one, remove the old, and announce the changes at forums I use regularly. If someone else hosts it it's available for more people to notice but I have less control over the link.

[Kulyok]

Well, it depends on the hoster. With RE I maintain here at G3, for example, all it takes is asking the administrator, CamDawg, and he usually uploads a new version within a day or two. With my other mods at PPG, I can upload a new version any time I want. Both variants seem rather good to me. I'm not advertising them, I'm just saying that I think there's always an acceptable solution - starting a small website with one of the available free hosters, for example.

[Qwinn]

SKARDAVNELNATE, hello! Yes, indeed, I did find your Lowden fix, you did a lot of great work there, and I basically implemented it straight from your readme midgame, heh. Very good work on that one, btw, can't have been fun doing vertex work. And thanks -so- much for giving such a detailed readme documenting your fixes, your "long list" is just awesome.

 

I was actually undertaking this mainly because I thought you'd stopped working on it, but if you are still updating it, great news.

 

Let me throw what meager findings I've come across in my own research, if you want to include them for your next release:

 

1) In looking at the DMORTE.DLG fix I referenced in the original post, I noticed that the Fixpack fix was incomplete (and Resto Pack's version of DMORTE.DLG breaks it again anyway).

 

The incorrect transfer to DCOLSRGR.DLG (Sharegrave's dialogue) when talking to Yellow-Fingers occurs in more than one place. Fixpack fixed the incorrect reference to it in Response 475, but missed it in Response 466 (few people would probably find that other one, as it supposedly only happens if you have less than 6 gold, but still, it's clearly a bug.). (Note - that said, the only other condition that apparently led to the bug that nailed me was if you give Yellow-Teeth 50 gold, and I'm pretty sure I didn't do -that- either, so maybe one of them can happen under more conditions than is immediately obvious, that's why I think it's important to fix both.)

 

EDIT: I just d/l'd your fixpack and checked this issue out in your versions. Your version in override1, the one meant to be applied after Fixpack only, has the same partial fix as the fixpack, it fixes response 475 but not 466. However, your override2 version, the one meant to replace the one in Resto Pack, does -not- include either fix and thus basically breaks it again, just as the original Resto Pack version does. Honestly, I'd give this particular file extra attention, cause the fixes to this file in Fixpack look to me to be a lot more important than Resto Pack's minor changes to his intro... I'd much rather fix game breaking bugs then add "Yay, you found a scalpel!", heh. I'd try to find what Resto Pack actually changed and then make those changes to the Fixpack version, and if you can't, I'd just get rid of Resto's version altogether, Fixpack's changes are a big deal, Resto's seems trivial.

 

2) I was actually dissuaded from fully installing your all-inclusive pack because it did not appear to be compatible with the Fixpack 1.37 beta (a.k.a. 1.38) that pretty much needs to be installed with the standard Fixpack 1.37. It's only like 4 files, but at least two of them that I recall are overwritten by your files, and had no idea if they were also accounted for.

 

3) Although I have not experienced them myself yet, I did read a bug report about your pack that says this: "a game crash in the lotar store (ofsets wrong fixable in nearinfinity, and wrong checks in the new pendant of yemeth quest (ditto)."

 

4) If I may ask... do you have reason to not want to repackage it all as a single install, giving the previous modders full credit in the readme for their work? Have you tried to contact them for permission for such an undertaking, and if so, was it just that you couldn't find 'em or did someone actually say no?

 

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

And by the way... I have to say this... just for my peace of mind, if I can bug you to answer a question for me, it'd actually help me get some sleep at night, lol, cause I am -lost-.

 

DNORDOM.DLG. The stat boost for Nordom that you can get based on a high charisma was supposedly bugged. Both Dan Simpson's walkthrough and the Fixpack readme mention a "bugged stat check" during that conversation. Fixpack readme says it fixes it. I believe I am looking at the vanilla version of DNORDOM.DLG (looking at the version in the DLG section in NI - that should be the vanilla version, shouldn't it?), and for the -life- of me I can't figure out how it was bugged! It appears to me that the stat check occurs in the replies to State 90 ("Come on, Nordom... strength, power, speed, focus..."). The original and the Fixpack version look identical to me. It's bugging the -hell- out of me that I can't see what was wrong with it, lol, or for that matter what Fixpack changed. If you're curious yourself and wanna take a look and you can tell me what the bug was, lol, please please do. The only thing I can imagine is that the version under the DLG heading in NI is -not- the vanilla version, and if that's true, I really really need to know that before I keep poking around, heh.

 

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay, sigh, I reinstalled everything just to find out for sure if files in the DLG section of NI were vanilla, and apparently they are -not-. Cause after installing clean and applying the patch, looking at the same file I was looking at a little while ago, I can now see the bugs where I couldn't before. That's just irritating, heh. Why is this, when everything I added after that was just a straight extract to the override directory?

 

Qwinn

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

Hey, thanks Qwinn. As I said I've been slowly working on another update. I had a few ideas of my own that haven't panned out so well.

 

1) The Morte - Shargrave bug. This was mentioned at GameFAQs a few months ago.

 

Fixpack's changes are a big deal, Resto's seems trivial.

I don't care much for Morte's restored dialog myself. I can see why the developers went with the shorter one. I tend to exclude a few files when installing everything and have a more customized game.

 

2) Platter often listed the effects but not the the changes he made to the files. I know I addressed the Hargrimm bug. I've been meaning to look through the others and compare them to add to my own.

 

3) I don't know about Lothar's store. This is the first I've heard of any problem with it.

Someone recently brought to my attention that I neglected to update Tegar'in's triggers when I copied some missing options from Aethelgrin's dialog.

 

4) The main reason is I don't know how to contact the other modders. I used to submit changes to Platter for his fix pack until he stopped updating. The Restoration doesn't even have the authors name in it.

 

5) The Nordom thing. Near Infinity has an option to ignore overrides when you open a file. This is useful for making comparisons but if you forget to uncheck it you could wind up wondering why none of the changes you make are sticking. The stat check is Trigger 104. Originally it was set to 14 instead of 24.