Planescape Modding/Analysis Help

[Qwinn]

Skard, I've been going through more dialogue files, some more info for you... want me to post what I find here, or email you or what?

 

Oh - and a question. Do you know what's up with "KAPUTZ" variables? I see references here and there, for example, some response will have an action:

 

IncrementGlobal("Kill_Githyanki","KAPUTZ",1),

 

where it uses KAPUTZ instead of GLOBAL. Is this just a way to basically comment out these variables from having any practical effect?

 

Qwinn

 

P.S. Oh, yeah, thanks for checking out the Nordom thing, heh. Yeah, all my confusion was because NI would load the override versions without me realizing it. All them bugs are plain as day now.

[igi]

Do you know what's up with "KAPUTZ" variables?

 

They are basically equivalent to SPRITE_IS_DEAD variables in the BG series.

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

Since I'm here now go ahead and post what you found. My regular haunt is the Planescape: Torment board at GameFAQs. I prefer people get my attention there if they encounter anything that needs work. I tend to use this forum only when I have an idea and run out of leads how to accomplish it.

 

KAPUTZ is used to check if you have killed a specified creature based on settings in the CRE file. Also it can be manipulated like a GLOBAL. So if you know which ones aren't used and need a free variable you can make use of it. For Curst Administration I used one to keep the character from replicating.

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

I've looked through the beta files.

 

For Hargrimm the undead would turn hostile after Hargrimm heals you. To fix this I changed the lines where 1501_Undead_Alert was set to 1. This isn't what the beta file does. In the original there was an entry for Took_Throne 1. The Fix Pack removed this. The beta adds this again but the response is NoAction(). This is actually a fix for the game sometimes freezing when you decide to become the Silent King.

 

In AR0500.BCS the effected section checks if you've been assigned Mar's quest and if the box hasn't been opened. The beta adds a check to make sure Aola hasn't dispatched the demon. When this section is used it means you left the box somewhere and don't have it with you. In this event the demon is no longer trapped in it and will hunt you down. The Fiend in Curst Gone is a result of this missing check. The description says it fixes a bug with Mar's quest if you've been to the Lower Ward before talking to him. However if you do that Mar isn't created to speak to and you can't get the quest.

 

I couldn't find any difference in the beta versions of the other filse compared to their originals. I sent an email to the apparent author of whatisthis.txt asking him to explain how he reached the conclusions he did.

[Qwinn]

Okay, here's one that probably deserves a mention. Not earth-shaking, but then the original fix wasn't either

 

DDAKKON.DLG:

 

You made a bunch of good small fixes to this file, and I doublechecked 'em out and they are, as far as I can tell, properly implemented throughout your AIP. One change is questionable, though. AIP documentation says:

 

"If you show Fell the dismembered arm and can understand him perfectly you get a journal entry. If you understand him but still have someone translate you don't. Response 395 set flag, add Jornal entry 24274"

 

This fix needs a bit of work. For the record, the same change was also made in DGRACE.DLG, response 208. Here's the problems with the fix as implemented:

 

1) The last bit of the added journal entry includes the information that the final symbol is "torment", and that it attracts other tormented souls to you. (Getting this info from Fell actually makes a difference in the endgame conversation with Morte, if he was also there to hear Grace translate it). It is not even possible to get Dakkon to give you that information, and it is easily possible to abort Grace's translation after she gets the journal entry but before she gets to translate that detail of it. So in both cases, the journal can give you "important" information that you don't actually get in game.

 

2) Even if you ignore that last bit of info about the torment symbol, this fix adds this journal entry only if Dakkon or Grace is translating, you know the language -and you have a high int-. You can still get the same information not knowing the language at all (thus actually needing the translations) or knowing the language and having a low int. If it does belong for one condition, it belongs for all of them.

 

3) Note that the one and only place that journal entry gets used in in the vanilla game - DFELL.DLG, response 318, asking about the arm and translating for yourself - is also deficient for the two reasons given above. You can get the journal entry before you actually get all that info, and I believe that if Dakkon is needlessly translating for you or you abort the conversation for some reason, you -won't- get the info you do get in the journal.

 

The super-perfect fix would be to split up that journal entry into two pieces, one where you find out about the four who travelled with you, and a different journal entry to tell you about the torment symbol. I don't know what's involved in creating new journal entries (does the StrRef# actually mean anything?), but if that's easy enough, then feel free to ask me to research where they should go, I've been in there deeply already and I have no problem determining which responses it should be added to. (each one would get quite a bit of use, actually)

 

If that doesn't happen, and the original J/E 24274 is the only entry available to use here, then the only places that entry is really appropriate are:

 

DGRACE.DLG, responses 216-219 and 286-289.

DFELL.DLG, responses 329-333 and 369-373.

 

Note - that would include removing it from it's original place in Fell's 318 response as well.

 

Qwinn

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

That's a lot more thought than I originally put into it. Originally I saw that it was a journal entry for being able to fully understand what fell tells you and there were conditions where you could do that but not get the entry.

 

1) You are right. This last part doesn't happen in the dialog immediately following. With Dak'kon or Grace translating it can be interrupted.

 

2) The journal entry quotes Fell directly.

One unloved who loves one that does not love.

One who does not see what others see and sees what others do not.

One who is familiar and bound with duty.

One who is a slave and his chains are words.

These are Fell's words and how it is written in the journal. If you have low intelligence you have a hard time understanding him. Instead you get:

An unloved one who loves.

One that sees.

Someone familiar.

A chained one.

If you actually needed the translations and don't understand Fell at all you only get that character's interpretation of what he says. Which is even less of a match for the journal entry. Only the responses that lead to State 59 should have it.

 

3) In Fell's dialog if you ask without anyone translating the part about Torment is unavoidable. There are no other options presented to you.

 

I don't know what's involved in creating new journal entries (does the StrRef# actually mean anything?)

The StrRef# refers to a string in Dialog.tlk. If you scroll down in Long list you'll see I already worked with it a few times. For what you're suggesting the last part would have to be deleted from one string and typed into an unused string. Then that string referenced in another response. It would have to be slightly reworded to be understood by itself. Such as "Fell" instead of "He" and something more specific instead of "they".

 

the only places that entry is really appropriate are:

DGRACE.DLG, responses 216-219 and 286-289.

DFELL.DLG, responses 329-333 and 369-373.

Well, that's one way to go. It would mean if you do interrupt the conversation you won't get the journal entry for the part of it you did cover. Which is what the problem was to begin with and it is the larger part of the entry. I would consider this more of a preference change at this point.

 

Note - that would include removing it from it's original place in Fell's 318 response as well.

What is your reason for thinking this? That option is only available when no one is translating. If no one is translating there is no way to interrupt the conversation.

[Qwinn]

In no particular order:

 

What is your reason for thinking this? That option is only available when no one is translating. If no one is translating there is no way to interrupt the conversation.

 

Because if you did what I suggested in the preceding paragraph (adding the entries when Fell and Grace actually tell you the whole thing), then you'll get the journal entry later on in Fell's dialogue. I was trying to avoid the possibility of getting the same journal entry twice (although if there's some automatic means of preventing double entries that would've prevented that then never mind).

 

I did find out I was wrong in two respects:

 

1. Dakkon will not explain the "torment" symbol to you, but if you are translating for yourself in the process of letting Dakkon translate for you and you have high int (same conditions as the one you added an entry for), you can be informed about the torment symbol (though you can still interrupt before that happens). You would never find out about it if your int isn't high enough or you don't know Dabus speak though, so in that sense, yeah, it's a good thing you didn't add the entry for those possibilities.

 

2) You're correct that, when no one is translating, your entry journal inevitably leads to the Torment discussion, it can't be avoided. My mistake.

 

The reasons I brought it up at all are mainly these two:

 

1. I generally considered the "torment" part of the journal entry as more important than the previous part because it does set a variable that will make that relevation come up (and Fell directly cited) in a dialogue with Morte later on in the game, and because it's pretty much the main theme that explains the -name- of the game, heh.

 

2. Personally, I'd rather have no journal entry come up at all, then to have a journal entry that gives information that was never actually acquired in game. The former wouldn't break immersion or make me think "WTF?", the latter could.

 

Your point that the translation offered in that journal entry is an exact transcript of what Fell says if you understand him, and is only an approximation if it's a translation by Dakkon or Grace, is valid, but the differences aren't so huge that it would break immersion, IMO. For example, Dakkon's description of the four seems apt to me, the only piece that doesn't gibe is that Dakkon doesn't specifically say that the "slave's chains are words". The rest is a decent paraphrase though.

 

I dunno. I see your reading and why you did it the way you chose to now, and as far as splitting the entry and all that goes, I can't argue that it's mainly a preference issue. The fact that you can get the Torment bits without ever actually hearing it still bothers me though.

 

Maybe the best way to handle it would be to eliminate the options to abort the conversation between your journal entry and the bit where you can "overhear" Fell mention the torment symbol?

 

I guess I'd modify my suggestion on how to be "super-perfect" about it to be to add a couple of new journal entries tailor made for Dakkon's and Grace's translations. The nice thing is that you wouldn't need to make them mutually exclusive, even if you were translating for yourself and got entry 24274 you still should get another entry giving Dakkon's or Grace's translation, such as "Dakkon told me that Fell said that the four who travelled with me were blah blah blah", which would work stand alone and would still flow appropriately if you got it after the 24274 entry. But I can understand if that's more trouble than it's worth.

 

Qwinn

 

EDIT: P.S., since I brought the whole thing up, I'm happy to do the research work to make it "super perfect", if you're willing to implement it (or send me a copy of your current beta version of the files so I can do it myself). If I were to go hog wild to make it "perfect", I'd eliminate any possibility anywhere of interrupting the conversation between being told about the four (by anybody) and being told about the torment symbol (by anybody), and add three journal entries that record 1. your own low int translation, 2. Dakkon's translation, and 3. Grace's translations explicitly. If you are interested in doing it, I can write up all the Journal entries and note precisely where they should each be inserted. If you don't feel it's worth it though, that's fine too, just offering my services in this regard. I'll be perfectly content if we just remove the possibility of interrupting the conversation before getting the torment bit, that's the only part that actually really bugs me, the rest is just nice-to-have for the sake of a complete journal even for the dumb illiterate Nameless Ones out there

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

EDIT: P.S., since I brought the whole thing up, I'm happy to do the research work to make it "super perfect"

I already worked on it. If you want to check it out for yourself try one of these. I didn't add the entry anywhere new. I still think it only applies for when you fully understand Fell.

 

1) Splitting the journal entry.

StringRef: 24274

Remove: He said they were all tormented as I am, and in my suffering, I draw others that suffer as well.

 

StringRef: 24184

This string is unused, blank, and near the other StringRef.

Add: Fell said the four who once walked my path with me were all tormented as I am, and in my suffering, I draw others that suffer as well.

Change Entry type Standard message (3)

 

DFELL.DLG

Response 326

set flag, add Journal entry 24184

 

DDAKKON.DLG

Response 413

set flag, add Journal entry 24184

 

DGRACE.DLG

Response 213

set flag, add Journal entry 24184

 

or 2) Remove any possibility of interruption.

Quicker and cleaner.

DDAKKON.DLG

State 97 # transitions 1

State 98 # transitions 3

 

DGRACE.DLG

State 31 # transitions 3

[Qwinn]

If I'm reading that last post right, you started off doing the split journal thing, then decided to scrap all that and just get rid of the possibility of interrupting the conversations when Dakkon and Grace are translating, yes?

 

If so, sounds good to me.

 

Still a technical shame that low-int/illiterate characters don't get a journal entry at all... but then by now anyone playing this game should be aware that by playing a dumb character you will miss a -lot- of content anyway. And as far as we can tell it reflects developer intent. So yeah, never mind all that.

 

Qwinn

 

P.S. To all the wiseasses out there, "illiterate" refers to Dabus speak, not Common or whatever passes for Common in Sigil. So no, I wasn't saying it's a shame the totally illiterate guy didn't write up a journal entry

[Avenger]

About the question of PST .gam files: DLTCEP can show most of the data. And my own dev. version shows the bestiary (known creatures) data too (i needed it for my own work).

Is there anything else you wanted to see?

[Qwinn]

Alright, bout to resume my game.... took a few days break from my PS:T run after finding Divine Divinity for $10 at Target, heh. Almost done with it. Not a bad game, though I don't think I'd ever play it a 2nd time.

 

Skard, I wouldn't be opposed to simply restarting my game, if you'd like someone to test for you. Do you need that, and is what you have in any condition for alpha/beta testing?

 

Qwinn

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

For me the trouble with working with someone is finding something for them to do. As far as what stage my work is in I could upload something at any time for people to start using. Though I think I'll hold off for a few more days to see if anything new occurs to me or other problems are posted. I do all the testing myself to make sure a change does what I want or nothing unexpected happens. If I've neglected something it's no problem to look at it again after someone posts a problem they've found. Three of the changes in the next one will be corrections on things I already worked on previously.

[Qwinn]

DEBB.DLG: exists everywhere - fixpack, restopack, and your override1 and override2.

 

State 77 says "You've got to think more even more deviously in order to get in..."

 

The first more should be cut.

 

Had a hard time telling if everything else was okay, as the file isn't mentioned in your Long list.txt, so not sure if you actually changed anything beyond what Fixpack and Resto did.

 

 

 

DSCOFF.DLG: only exists in Fixpack

 

State 2 says "And your question answers mine: you had no idea this was a printing shop this was before strolling in, and now...".

 

The second "this was" should be removed.

 

Qwinn

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

The actual text in dialogs are taken from the Dialog.tlk file. Those are the String References. The dialog file where it appears or what version they are from isn't that important. Just the mistake itself since the String References (56933 and 65181) were easy enough to find with a string search. I'll add this to my edit.

 

Tuesday is my next free day and I think I'll upload a new version if there's nothing more to work on by then.

[Qwinn]

Awesome! I'll start up a new game when it comes out then

 

Oh, and if it's being considered at all, put me down as a vote in favor of a single install procedure, heh - meaning, skip this overlaying override 2 on top of resto pack on top of override 1 on top of fixpack, heh. All due credit to the guys who worked on this before, they deserve it, but they seem to be gone now and they're not responding to hails, so... give 'em big kudos in the readme but otherwise seems like this project is your baby now, specially since you were directly involved in the fixpack and resto yourself to at least some degree. One big install which doesn't require fixpack or resto to be downloaded at all would be ideal. I'd think it'd make maintenance going forward a lot less of a pain in the ass, too. I certainly know it'd make my meager little attempts to help out with the debugging a lot less painful.

 

I mean heck, you'd actually be following in the tradition of G3 Fixpack obsoleting Baldurdash after Kevin Dorner disappeared...

 

EDIT: Keeping the "extra" directory for overlaying on top of the other little mods is probably a good idea... no big deal downloading the Candlestick quest separately, for example... but the two really big ones that pretty much everyone's going to want to install as part of all this, it's just a major pain in the ass, and bound to cause installation problems for people.

 

And frankly, Resto pack seems more like stuff that belongs in a fixpack to me, specially if you cut out that lame Morte's Intro bit. I mean, really, look at the list...

 

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/index_mods.php

 

 

* A bestiary entry for the Alu-Fiend added, specifically for Vrischika

* Extra journal descriptions for all main characters, as well as the Dustmen, Dhall, Lothar, and Trias

X * Many, MANY text typos fixed

X * Fix for Death.2DA comments

* A lost salesman added to Curst

* Several item restorations, including Devil's Due, Chaos Feather, and Lockpicks

X * Asleep and Frozen anims now appear correctly

X * Lost dialog blocks restored, mainly little things, but some major (such as one instance with Emoric)

X * Justifier behaves correctly

* Mortuary now has an alarm system put in.

* A few character comments restored

X * More correct bestiary picture for Deionarra

X * Character name corrections

* Spell keys now available in game, save Baator's

X * Able PonderThought will now be able to do his research

X * Githerzerai tattoo previously unavailable can be bought if you do things right

* Morte's original intro added!

* Tome O' Cheats and Sword of Whynn are purchasable

* Eye of Vecna can now be bought as well!

* Lothar will buy your skulls

X * Spell casting time corrected

X * Neck cracking sound restored

X * Many bugfixes

 

At least all of those marked with an X are more properly considered fixes than restorations, IMO, and even a bunch of the unchecked ones are arguably fixes too. *shrug* Even the unchecked stuff, I really don't see anything that would make people say "I don't want this, it'll spoil my whole game!", particularly if it means not installing them will leave some bugs in too.

 

Qwinn

 

P.S. Rereading this thread, I just noticed your preference that I post stuff on the gamefaqs board instead of here. Sorry, I missed that before. Wilco in the future.