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Moongaze II

Discussion on Crossmod Interest Thread

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Yes, I know the history. But what seemed like a good idea at the time clearly isn't. You get fewer, and lower-quality, banters this way.

 

Without violating anybody's sacred trust, the mod could simply be frozen and something more sensible started in its place.

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Splitting this topic seemed a good way to allow discussion to continue, if necessary, without cluttering the actual Crossmod Interest Thread.

 

By all means, carry on, but I'd like to reserve the original thread for actual mod entries, so that they don't get lost in the shuffle.

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This mod does not have to be forzen really for someone to start a new one that have a different set of rules. The users will still have to dl both to get all the content, unless JC suggests to include all the existing content (or Z BEZT one) into the new pack. Again, since the premise is to remove the CR on the authorship of the modded NPCs entirely and treat them like BioWARE's, one again can do it without asking anyone anything as well - since you can repackage Bioware banters and do ajustments to them without asking Bio the permission.

Edited by Domi

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The funny thing is, Banter Pack still has "Add new NPC banters and interjections to SOA and TOB, for both the Bioware gang and your mod NPC favorites." in its forum description. :thumbsup:

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Somehow, I just don't see unauthorized banters between another mod NPC and Xan, for example, being accepted with much enthusiasm by at least one of the modders. :thumbsup:

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This mod does not have to be forzen really for someone to start a new one that have a different set of rules.

 

No, but if we can get some consensus that this permission thing is a bad idea, then not perpetuating it any further than is necessary would be nice.

 

Again, since the premise is to remove the CR on the authorship of the modded NPCs entirely and treat them like BioWARE's, one again can do it without asking anyone anything as well

 

I don't follow what you're saying here. Rephrase, please.

 

funny thing

 

Yes, well, I probably should (have) move(d) the stuff buried in Kelsey and Keto there some time ago.

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You want another "Split from crossmod" thread? I can organize one, if you like. :thumbsup:

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Hey, my point wasn't to beat this to death forever. But even within the PPG community of modders, there are two diametrically opposed stances on the issue of modder control of crossmod. JC says "treat mod NPCs like BioWare," and Kulyok's views on anybody else writing Xan crossmod are well known.

 

Given that these two sides will never be reconciled, it's probably best to just carry on and try not to have an actual body count.

 

I'd be all for open crossmod, personally, but as long as there are those who feel otherwise, then it stays as it is.

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Nobody's ever agreed on how open crossmod should be, back the very first discussion on this I witnessed when I just started modding, to Domi's "Should we write reactions to other mods without another author's consent?" here at G3, when Bons said that she wouldn't support it wholeheartedly. But that's in general.

 

Specifically, Crossmod Banter Pack's been built with the presumption of "yes, both authors agreed on it, it's definitely not cmorgan misspelling Tashia's name in every sentence", so I naturally expect to see only author-approved banters there. The same goes for other mods where the author said "Kulyok, I want to collaborate with YOU" and set me in the credits. In both cases, there's no going back, as the users are already expecting to see material approved by both authors.

 

Which reminds me -

 

But even within the PPG community of modders, there are two diametrically opposed stances on the issue of modder control of crossmod. JC says "treat mod NPCs like BioWare," and Kulyok's views on anybody else writing Xan crossmod are well known.

 

Don't put words in my mouth, please.

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Kulyok's views on anybody else writing Xan crossmod are well known
I was avoiding a quote for a reason. It's easier than linking a lot of posts to that effect. Kindly do not accuse me of putting words in your mouth unless I have actually done so.

 

 

But that is not the point!

 

My point is that as long as modders feel that way about crossmod, JCompton's approach to crossmod cannot be used for CBP.

 

Apart from that, there are modders like Kulyok and Sillara who participated in CBP with the full understanding that they would be approving any crossmod for their NPCs. It's too late to revise that now.

 

Going forward, of course, it's always possible for individual modders to leave "standing orders," as Domi, K'aeloree, and I have done, but modders who are currently participating in the CBP do have a right to expect that the conditions under which they agreed to participate are still in effect.

 

So this has been a long discussion about nothing.

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My point is that as long as modders feel that way about crossmod, JCompton's approach to crossmod cannot be used for CBP.

 

Which is why I proposed freezing it and directing all future efforts to something more sensible.

 

Going forward, of course, it's always possible for individual modders to leave "standing orders,"

 

Perpetuating the presumption that permission is required or should be honored at all is a mistake.

 

So this has been a long discussion about nothing.

 

Doesn't have to be...

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So what do you propose?* Incorporating it in Crossmod Banter Pack won't happen, of course, but I'm always open to new ideas.

 

But maybe General Mod Discussion might be a better venue for that discussion. While there might be modders who participate in both Crossmod Banter pack and a mod that your idea becomes, Crossmod Banter Pack isn't going to change its policies.

 

 

*I'm serious about that, by the way. I've got to get to work for real, for the job that pays the bills, but I'd like to read what you've got to say later.

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I'd be interested to hear as well, JC. Personally, I think the best way for modded NPCs to be treated is as Bioware NPCs, so I would be very interested to hear alternative ideas.

 

Just a side-note: Crossmod will not change it's policies without Grim's consent, since it is not our project but his. We are just the caretakers. So, we will not change the policies unless prospective changes have been put to Grim and he agrees with them.

 

An alternative to a new project would simply be for authors to give the go-ahead for people to treat their NPCs like Bioware NPCs. I've done it, Domi's done it and berelinde's done it; people are absolutely free to submit banters for NPC/Iylos, NPC/Kivan/Deheriana and NPC/Gavin to CMBP without our consent.

 

If you would like your NPC to function similarly, tell us, and we'd be absolutely delighted to add a note next to your NPC to this effect in the Interest thread.

 

On that note--I believe Solaufein is treated in this way, as well as Kelsey (and Keto)? JC, could you confirm/deny for us? :thumbsup:

 

 

Edit: And since I feel I should make some kind of response to the post which brought this up: Moongaze, if you are truly so paranoid that your work will be altered, then yes, it is best for you to take it out of this project. However, I would like to point out that so far we have had no complaints from modders to this effect. IF changes are made it is with the full consent of both modders involved. berelinde and I do not decide what is included or what is not included, nor do we make judgments on the content, we merely put it together. Our personal viewpoints do not even enter into it, and berelinde can definitely confirm this. As far as this project goes, we are extremely neutral.

Edited by Kaeloree

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But maybe General Mod Discussion might be a better venue for that discussion.

 

If you like.

 

If you would like your NPC to function similarly, tell us, and we'd be absolutely delighted to add a note next to your NPC to this effect in the Interest thread.

 

As I keep trying to explain, I think the "individual author blanket permission" stuff, although "right in spirit", only perpetuates the real sin of hubris involved here by lending credence to the notion that permission needs to be given at all!

Edited by jcompton

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My my, hasn't this grown out of its own clothing since my absence. Very well, now that I know this, I might as well react.

 

Removed Hi'll-Rei, since I don't think you're working on him any longer?

 

That's correct.

 

Of course you're allowed to participate, all modders are.
Past conflicts should never stop modding, and any history Moongaze and I have certainly doesn't affect this mod. This is an open project, and Grim, berelinde and I are open to any and all modders who wish to contribute!

 

That's refreshing...I had certainly thought our history would have banned me from participation, seeing how you're "in charge" in a way. I see now that I should have been more open to a different kind of reaction from you, Kae... after our last clash, I hadn't thought it possible. Perhaps I underestimated you...

 

And since I feel I should make some kind of response to the post which brought this up: Moongaze, if you are truly so paranoid that your work will be altered, then yes, it is best for you to take it out of this project. However, I would like to point out that so far we have had no complaints from modders to this effect. IF changes are made it is with the full consent of both modders involved. berelinde and I do not decide what is included or what is not included, nor do we make judgments on the content, we merely put it together. Our personal viewpoints do not even enter into it, and berelinde can definitely confirm this. As far as this project goes, we are extremely neutral.

 

Oh no, 'tis not because I fear the content being altered... I merely requested a withdrawal because I had assumed I would not be allowed to participate. No, I foolishly didn't read the thread until a few hours ago... I know, 'tis why things went haywire. I apologise for the misunderstandings this topic has sprouted... I did not mean for it to evolve into a discussion like this. Keep Wikaede/Kivan in it, if you still feel that's okay. At the very least, it will end this discussion. ^_^

 

And I also feel I should say something.

I tire of fighting, Liam...mind if I call you that? We may never become friends again. We don't even have to like each other, but at the very least, can we agree to bury the hatchet? Even if you feel that I'm the only one with a problem still, your agreement to this message of peace is all I need to know.

 

For the record: I have no problems with Kivan-Wikadae content staying in the mod, and I would like to remind Moongaze that this content represents not solely his work.

 

I know, Domi. I know.

Edited by Moongaze II

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