zixi Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Frankly, the character that annoys me the most isn't any of the NPCs - it's <CHARNAME> - whose dialogues suggest that he/she has 18/00,18,18,10,10,8 . Practically everyone can outsmart him/her. rofl - for once I find myself lost for a counter argument! I always play females, if possible , but recently I started up a male character intending to see some of the paths available to them. I'd always assumed that the breathless ingénue feel to BG was down to a slightly different gender specific dialogue path. But no, the PC is just a dolt no matter what the gender... Reassuring really if you think about it... Link to comment
_Nix_ Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Oh gods, don't get me started on <CHARNAME>. I sit there almost crying in frustration as my character apparently looks at the world through naiive rose tinted glasses, says everything which is on her mind exactly as she thinks it, never lies, never expects anyone to double cross her... I've already said this stuff on SHS: It's my little revenge on the game for assuming that my characters mean every letter of what they say. Where's the option to *lie*? Why do I bother having Int/Cha scores at all if I can't fast talk? ¬.¬ Nice pictures, _Nix_! Why all of your PCs CN? Possibly because I am I dunno, it's just more fun. I hate the whole thing where the game seems to think you're totally naiive, take everything at face value, and always say exactly what you mean. I like to think sometimes my characters are playing the NPCs at their own game. Certainly Flick, as a PnP character, has +23 to bluff, +15 to diplomacy and +18 to sense motive, so she's at least a little savvy. Jana is a BARD in the truest sense of the word, she doesn't go out of her way to hurt people, but she looks after number one, and she won't do anything for free. Nix should possibly be TN as she's a little more thoughful/sympathetic but even so she's hardly one to rush in and upset the status quo without finding out both sides of the story. Thanks for the compliments, guys Link to comment
Cal Jones Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I find the lack of dialogue options with Bodhi and Elhan particularly frustrating. If you've read Irenicus' journal and spoken to Saemon in Spellhold then it's not such a great surprise that he and Bodhi are elves... At least we now have Wheels of Prophecy so we can stick it to Smelly Melly! Link to comment
zixi Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I find the lack of dialogue options with Bodhi and Elhan particularly frustrating. If you've read Irenicus' journal and spoken to Saemon in Spellhold then it's not such a great surprise that he and Bodhi are elves...At least we now have Wheels of Prophecy so we can stick it to Smelly Melly! I mentally tell myself that the dialogues are sort of 'headlines' and in reality a lot more has been said... Anyway, you might like a progress report on Edwin and Angelo... Spoilers for Angelo and Edwin romances ahead... We're in Saradush. I have a pain from laughing at Edwin so much. And what has Angelo learned the hard way? Don’t try emotional blackmail on Zi! Then there were five… I had to reload 10 times before I’ve got to the stage where I can continue with the mod; I just couldn’t bring myself to say the right words. Anyway, I’ve found a solution - I’m going to leave him in the PP to cool down… The sort of BG equivalent to a cold shower I think… But absolutely brilliant writing because it's supporting my negative view of his motives very well and yet I can see that the 'positive' side would work well too. One time through I was steeled to say 'yes' when Sarevok chimed in and hey we’re there kind of staring at an empty space (again) and I’m saying OK guys, party over; it’s time to reload… The only way I got through it was to tell myself I was working through a test plan and *all* dialogue options had to be tried... Link to comment
_Nix_ Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 SPOILERS! . . . . . . . . . . . . I liked the option to whisper to him "Hells, Angelo, I feel like I'm swearing a geas." I felt that nicely summed up my general feelings of "if it makes you happy, then fine, but I've definitely been more comfortable. Link to comment
zixi Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 MORE SPOILERS SPOILERS! I liked the option to whisper to him "Hells, Angelo, I feel like I'm swearing a geas." I felt that nicely summed up my general feelings of "if it makes you happy, then fine, but I've definitely been more comfortable. Yes, my feeling absolutely. The options in those dialogues are very clever. I fetched Imoen to see how she felt because actually I agree with Sarevok's opinion of Angelo... I was a smidgen disappointed in her. I assume she didn't want to mar a 'happy' day. But her poignant speech in SoA when she saw Angelo in the party was still ringing in my eyes at Saradush. There's no way I'd be able to go through with that outside a 'test plan' scenario... and the fact there are two occasions to opt out means that the reading of Angelo as essentially dishonest and manipulative is one supported by the text. I keep reminding myself that emotional blackmail is one of the easiest things to do, one of the hardest things to deal with and <CHARNAME> is 20 while he is 50ish. Sarevok goes as far as he dares I guess, but even he doesn't like what he sees... Link to comment
Cal Jones Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I never got that bit of SoA dialogue from Imoen - I just got her response after you bring Angelo back from the dead (post-Bodhi). It's interesting, though, how different tastes are. I found Angelo kinda sweet, at least once you get past his barriers, whereas playing through a romance with Anomen or Kelsey feels very much like going through the motions for me. I couldn't really envisage myself wanting to be with either of those characters, so I always felt a bit on the outside, which it sounds like you are now, with Angelo. The thing for me is that, as far as BG goes, I generally don't RP much - if I'm playing a female character, I'm basically thinking how I would feel in those situations. I've been playing Domi's IWD2 NPC mod and for once I created a character very unlike me because I wanted to see what this notorious Diriel "romance" was all about. Now there's a character I can't understand anyone liking - he's evil, certainly, but I also find him particularly cold and charmless. It's like romancing Dr Mengele. To deal with that I've had to make a character who is essentially naive and easily impressed - something I'm not, in the slightest. But it's an interesting exercise, and I've enjoyed it (more so because although Diriel is completely objectionable, he isn't actually irritating...) I guess there are certain things that don't sit well with some players but are tolerable for others. I was all too happy to say yes to Angelo in Saradush, whereas I've never felt happy about accepting Anomen's marriage proposal (and usually don't - in fact the only time I play Anomen's romance these days is if I'm playing through Romantic Encounters, because I feel guilty cheating on anyone else!) For me, it seems that the characters who are too eager to please (or impress, in Anomen's case) are a turn-off. I was mostly OK with Kelsey in SoA, but as soon as he starts trying to persuade you that he has more to offer than godhood and immortality in ToB, it had the opposite effect of making me want to run away. Angelo's the complete opposite - he starts by making it clear he has no intention of getting involved with his "boss", but eventually lets down his guard and succumbs. I guess I'll have to play him again soon so I can see what you're getting at here, but I didn't really have any issues with his personality. Link to comment
_Nix_ Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I have no problems with his personality either, if that's any consolation (I had a lucky day where I managed to force most of his SoA dialogue so I *think* I've seen it all now). Kelsey made me want to punch him. It's like having a teenage kid. Anomen... well. Yeah. Solaufein made me want to slit my wrists and had me mashing return to get to the end of his bouts of poetry. Edwin started out fun but broke for me, but even he was pretty neurotic-up-and-down. Angelo is kinda sweet, I guess cos there's an element of realism - no-one, in real life, when considering a serious relationship expects and gets that it will be a fairytale romance now and always, and I do get a little bit annoyed with the whole "ALWAYS loving, ALWAYS supportive, ALWAYS good together" thing some romances have, or the ones which are the polar opposite, "blowing hot and cold drama queens". Angelo manages to avoid both of them - in fact, now I come to think of it the really nice thing is that as long as you don't say anything too completely horrible, you can get a reasonable response from being either joky or serious as well, or a mix of the two, so you don't have to be playing a character who always reacts the same way to everything. Dunno about you guys but how I respond to my partner depends on the mood I'm in, the time of day, the phase of the moon, the alignment of the planets... In fact, the only thing which *did* make me feel a bit "whoa" was the marriage - which I was EXPECTING cos I saw it was going to happen on here. Even knowing it was coming up I was a bit skittish, but again with the lack of RP (like Cal), the thought of marrying someone irl, for me, is definitely uncomfortable. I guess it's just a case of me always behaving like I would anyway, and Angelo being the mod which gave the least jarring responses. Hands up who's thought "I'll play it evil this time, all the way through, for real!" and then ended up just being a sarcastic, snotty, git, cos they couldn't bring themselves to actually kill kids/steal from the poor/whatever Link to comment
zixi Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Lots of SPOILERS ahead!!!! - I mean it! Cal OK <CHARNAME> is a bad girl, she has to initiate the ‘romance’ to start with but only via a fairly harmless flirt. The romance then finally gets to a stage where if <CHARNAME> says ‘sleep with me’… Angelo suggests a one night stand and then if she doesn’t tell him to get lost he arranges a surprise wedding! There’s no such thing as a surprise wedding – that’s someone indulging in emotional blackmail. As I see it he was an only child raised by prostitutes. He saw women selling themselves to men of all types and that would be sufficient to account for an ambivalent attitude to women. There’s a very telling moment in SoA where the PC can flirt by asking how Angelo views her – comrade or lover… and he explains how a man can show his love for a fellow soldier by watching his back… but that’s not how he shows his love for a woman. If you bear that in mind and then remember his stories of his army days and his initial exchanges with Sarevok, I think you have it all. He has figured out how to love a man and I think he really did (and perhaps does) love Sarevok and I’m not suggesting a gay relationship, I’m talking platonic love here. But as for women, I don’t think he’s figured it out. The relationship had got quite a way before Angelo asked the PC about herself. It’s as if he doesn’t know what to ask but his exchanges with the men in the party are actually fine. He admires Valygar and obviously likes him. He gets on with Keldorn. His treatment of Aerie is very unkind though and the only way he can deal with Imoen is to see her as a child. The bit about never explaining his first love clinches it for me… he can’t tell the truth. I think that’s partly because he likes lying (remember lying gives the liar power over the person being lied to) and I don’t think he knows his first love because I don’t think he’s figured out what it is to love a woman! I feel a huge amount of pity for him. He was clearly badly damaged before he met Sarevok and Sarevok is fairly badly damaged but has the ability to damage other people even more! But there’s no way I’d be romantically involved with him. He can’t tell the truth. I’m not clear if he knows what the truth actually is, but even if he does he prefers to lie. There are flashes of honesty – in fact I think the honesty arrives when he says he is kidding! Read like that, there’s no way I can come out of the church as Mrs Dosan… even the wedding ring is a ward against backstab! I doubt a more ironically Freudian wedding ring exists! I never ‘ascend’. I’ve watched the ‘Ascension’ vid once to see what they did. I’ve never chosen to ascend because power corrupts; it might even corrupt me – who knows. However, if I played the mod as Mrs Dosan I would ascend definitely. It’s the only safe way out and actually that’s very dishonest because the PC would be doing exactly what Angelo is doing: ie not being upfront about motives. I rest my case your honour… Am I being boring yet? Sorry Nix - it's bed time here; I dare not read you because you'd have said something interesting and I won't get any sleep and I have an early start! I'll read you tomorrow Link to comment
Sorrow Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Oh gods, don't get me started on <CHARNAME>. I sit there almost crying in frustration as my character apparently looks at the world through naiive rose tinted glasses, says everything which is on her mind exactly as she thinks it, never lies, never expects anyone to double cross her... Yeah, that's the great saviour of the cRPG genre . The thing for me is that, as far as BG goes, I generally don't RP much - if I'm playing a female character, I'm basically thinking how I would feel in those situations. I wouldn't be able to play myself in BG. <CHARNAME> is too stupid for it XD . Hands up who's thought "I'll play it evil this time, all the way through, for real!" and then ended up just being a sarcastic, snotty, git, cos they couldn't bring themselves to actually kill kids/steal from the poor/whatever It never happened to me. I remember that when I started playing cRPGs seriously (IIRC, it was Fallout) - I usually played characters with my morals - something like a paladin - behaving nobly, never stealing, never taking drugs, never drinking, etc. etc. etc. After a few months I came to conclusion, that I prefer escapism in gaming, so I started playing weird characters like slavers, pimps, sluts, bandits, thieves, murderers, serial murderers, mass murderers, necromancers, blackmailers, xenophobes, cheaters, etc., etc., etc. Anything goes . On the other hand, I would never play a Gnome... There's something about Gnomes that makes me sick . Link to comment
Sister Vigilante Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 My evil characters always start doing good things incrementally because it's "sensible," and it's all downhill (or rather uphill) from there I should say again, I find it more than reasonable that Angelo wouldn't be everyone's cup of romantic tea. I do think his being raised by a whorehouse is significant--it gives him a strange thing where he isn't a raging misogynist, but has a number of strange attitudes about women. Freud discovered (and I can't remember if I had this in mind) in many of his middle-aged patients, that they had difficulty, err, performing for their wives, but still frequented prostitutes--because they associated their wives, as models of feminine virtue, with their mothers, and often by association with the "perfect mother"--the Virgin Mary (known in the colloquial as the Madonna/whore complex). Angelo flips all this on its head because his mother, whom he evidently loved, was in fact a whore. As such whoredom sort of is his ideal of feminine virtue, and I think this accounts for a lot of his problems with women. While some men simply view women and sexual objects, Angelo strangely transcends this while still having difficulty viewing them nonsexually. Which is to say nothing of the issue of fathers. I might also point out something that surprisingly nobody has brought up, and that didn't fully occur to me as I was writing it--but which comes as no surprise to me, now that I think about it. I'm embarrassed to spell it out because I'm trying to wean myself off the habit of in-jokery. But, has anyone seen Kill Bill? Does Angelo...remind you anybody?* And in this respect, I find Kill Bill to be a deeply romantic film. * hint: -raised in whorehouse -significantly older than lover(s) -has a katana Link to comment
Sister Vigilante Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 p.s. yes CHARNAME is a doofus I imagine him/her sort of like an old cartoon character, like the Roadrunner, who manages to elude all these elaborate traps through no clear faculty of his/her own Link to comment
Cal Jones Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Nix, I think you nailed his personality there. And yes I have a tough time playing evil - it feels very uncomfortable. I'm not even that nice a person, but picking the mean responses and taking the nasty option (killing Adalon, siding with Bodhi) generally makes me feel guilty. Oh and I can't bring myself to play a gnome either. I had a hard enough time playing an elf just so I could try the Xan romance... The wedding thing didn't bother me but I guess I liked Angelo enough at this point. I was always happy to accept Edwin's proposal when I've played his romance, also. The one thing I feel really uncomfortable with is children because I have a very real aversion to them in real life (I don't wish them harm, I just don't want them near me), and whilst I don't like to ascend either, Kelsey's romantic epilogue was enough to make me replay the last battle and choose godhood. So ultimately I guess it's all down to what you're comfortable with. Games are for fun so forcing yourself into decision you find not fun is counterproductive. Link to comment
Sorrow Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 My evil characters always start doing good things incrementally because it's "sensible," and it's all downhill (or rather uphill) from there Ha. I suspect that it has something to do with BG doing everything to punish evil characters rather than rewarding in-character decisions. One can't even rob a shop in BG. Not to mention the fact that attacking a commoner results in all the other commoners becoming hostile, which is completely unrealistic. So ultimately I guess it's all down to what you're comfortable with. Games are for fun so forcing yourself into decision you find not fun is counterproductive. Sometimes characters may do things that they feel uncomfortable with (for greater good for example). Link to comment
zixi Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Spoilers ahead... Apt ending via the ascension route. And yes I did feel pity but the guy had sold something meant for Sarevok and somehow that was awfully hard to forgive. I don't have a problem forgiving on my own behalf but I have serious issues when I try to forgive meanness to other people... Great mod! Highly recommended and it left me very thoughtful over the nature of good and evil. Bravo! Link to comment
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