A warning for Sister V

[Cal Jones]

spoiler

 

 

Did you mean the emeralds? I actually kept those the whole way through, just in case, and yet he still said he "hocked" them. Not that it mattered by that point as we were all rich as Croesus.

[zixi]

Did you mean the emeralds? I actually kept those the whole way through, just in case, and yet he still said he "hocked" them. Not that it mattered by that point as we were all rich as Croesus.

 

 

spoiler

 

 

rofl yeah, if only the wealth was transferable - I'd pay off my mortgage and several other people's as well.

 

This was a jewel passed to Angelo by Tomoko to give to Sarevok to pay for prayers and litany so to speak... Now, there isn't a problem, I'd pay for it for him several times over but it was just the way he said it... it seemed spiteful. Sarevok is no saint... but he'd 'changed' and I have the most appalling soft spot for him so perhaps I didn't react as well as I ought. As I say, he can be as nasty to the PC as he likes but spite to other people I don't deal with very well - not in-game nor out!

 

If he still had them and just said that, it's even worse... I may reload and polymorph him for being so spiteful!

[Cal Jones]

spoiler

 

 

 

Well I think the mod just assumes you'll sell them (I can't remember if it's one or two), since when you meet Angelo early in SoA you don't have much cash. If they were special quest items then it should be possible to insert a variable to check for them later in the game, but they look like regular emeralds to me. (I know zip about coding, actually, but I guess it's possible to check for emeralds anyway, but I'd assume there's nothing in place that does so when it comes to passing Tamoko's letter to Sarevok. Perhaps this is something Sister V might like to implement for v4?)

You have to remember, also, that Angelo thinks (in fact, knows) Sarevok is dead during SoA so he has little reason not to sell them at that point. I don't actually think he's being malicious to Sarevok - he's just 'fessing up. (But by that token, I also interpreted his silly stories about his first love as teasing, rather than outright lying, and was too busy giggling at the references to even think about being annoyed).

 

As for Sarevok, I have a big soft spot for him too - he is always part of my crew and I always make a point of redeeming him. He is pretty bad tempered and does have some nasty things to say to some of the NPCs, but Sister V's version is even meaner, especially where it comes to Angelo. That's his interpretation, of course, but then if you go back to Baldur's Gate and read some of his correspondance, he's not the nicest fellow. If Angelo is a bit snarky to him, who can blame him, really?

[Sister Vigilante]

Thank you, Zixi!

 

 

 

 

spoiler

 

 

What Cal says about the emeralds is spot-on; I would assume everyone sells them--unless you know what's coming, there's no reason not to.

 

[And I just like the player thinking, Jeez, I blew Tamoko's funeral money on one bundle of +2 arrows...]

 

As far as Angelo's thinking goes, though, I would say it goes beyond spite. Angelo would have found it hard to believe that Tamoko could still love Sarevok after everything he had done to her, and I imagine reading the letter [which of course he did, being Angelo] was a big shock to him--especially considering he had a crush on her himself. Given also that he has dim views of the efficacy of Kara-Turan religion, it's unlikely he would have seen the prayers as necessary to Tamoko's salvation in the afterlife. What's more, he would have found it unlikely that Sarevok--as he was at the time of his death--would honor Tamoko's wish in any case.

 

Seeing that Sarevok has changed, he turns over the letter--and as has been pointed out, the party is so rich by this point that the 300 gold is a drop in the bucket.

 

 

Edit: Just to be on the safe side I threw some spoiler tags on these

[zixi]

Thank you, Zixi!

 

I suspect both of us are getting fed up with my saying how much I like the mod because I don’t like Angelo. But I’m just a little anxious that a) you have some niggling doubts this is negative criticism (it isn’t – if it was I’d either say zilch; that’s my most likely reaction or if forced I’d leave you in no doubt as to my opinions!) and b) someone will come along, read part of my rambling argument and come to the conclusion I’m being nasty. Au contraire, I’m saying that the mod is an extraordinary piece because my view is diametrically opposite to Cal’s for example and believe me none of your (combined) arguments have taken me more than a few moments to refute and that’s not because I’m as slippery as Dorotea’s ‘Irenicus’ (another great piece of characterisation)! It’s because there is sufficient ambivalence in the dialogue to lend support to a number of different interpretations, which in a game context is exactly what’s needed. But forums are very blunt instruments and it’s not always possible to gauge just how my comments are being received so every so often I feel obliged to say it all over again. But this is the last and final time!! (I sound like Xan…) because I’m beginning to feel like the player queen in 'Hamlet' (‘The lady doth protest too much, methinks.’)

 

Spoilers ahoy!

 

Hmmm Cal, I follow your arguments and if Angelo needs an apologist then he should look no further, you're persuasive.

 

I’ve been in a position very close to that of Angelo’s over Tamoko’s request; in my case it was a complete stranger and I set about making sure his wishes were carried out even though my ‘religious’ views didn't coincide, I hadn't been asked nor had I made any promises! So, what kind of person ignores the last requests of a dead friend and someone he says he fancied? He knew Sarevok was dead so if he cared he’d do it himself or at least get it done.

 

It didn’t look like ‘fessing up’ to me – it looked suspiciously like gloating. Coming after Sarevok’s ‘change’ I found that all the more disturbing and poignant. My dialogue option was to leave them to it but Sarevok gave me the letter which actually fitted in well with his ‘change’ and I felt like weeping for him there! I have the ‘Remorse’ mod installed as well so I’d had some additional conversations over Tamoko and I’d already seen the effect on him! So, again from my point of view excellent writing but for me it didn’t show Angelo in a good light.

 

I hope you guys are finding my ‘take’ on this as interesting as I’m finding yours. I’m not trying to persuade you to my views – just as I know you aren’t trying to do that to me but I am interested in seeing if there’s any flaw in my argument. I don’t think there is and I’m pretty certain that the text supports either the positive or negative view of Angelo – in other words I don’t think it’s me. The only place where I felt a touch uncomfortable with my attitude and the available responses was after the wedding where he and <CHARNAME> are alone together. I wanted to say something more cryptic or nothing at all.

[Cal Jones]

I enjoy being part of such a well-mannered debate - it makes a refreshing change from the usual "ur wrong" "no u r" "no u suck" type arguments you see elsewhere... I also see your point of view, but then again I'm a philosophy graduate (a completely useless degree, incidentally, but as you're forced to argue points and counterpoints over and over, it does help when it comes to seeing various points of view.)

 

You make a very good point about Tamoko's body - Angelo dealing with it himself would have been the decent thing to do. However, bear in mind that he is very much persona non grata in Baldur's Gate - getting caught there would have been fatal, without a shadow of a doubt. A very goodly sort of person might risk everything to bury his true love, but Angelo's not that good, and his feelings for Tamoko ran to lust and possibly a bit of affection mixed with pity, rather than love. He probably felt that discretion was the better part of valour, in that case.

 

With the Remorse mod, I'm assuming you mean the one that is part of Unfinished Business? I've had that installed a couple of times now and have only ever had the one extra conversation with Sarevok (which involves Tamoko and Yoshimo) - there aren't any more I've missed, are there?

[zixi]

So a philosophy grad - it makes sense. I'm an ex arts grad but I did my post grad stuff in computer science so it makes a nice change to argue things arty!

 

Yes I think the 'Remorse' must have been through 'UB'. I don't have the whole of 'UB' installed as some of it never seems to like my installation. There's one very long exchange about Tamoko I think and it fitted well with the 'Angelo'.

 

You know Cal, I think part of my attitude to Angelo might be a reaction to neutral alignments. But I'm still thinking this through.

[Cal Jones]

I usually play neutral alignments (though lawful rather than chaotic), so there you go.

 

And OK, that sounds like the Remorse I played - just one long conversation which is quite easy to mess up if you're not careful! (And the Yoshimo diary part in SoA, of course).

 

UB behaves fairly well for me, but I'm also fairly selective about which parts of it I install. I do a clean install each time I start a new game of BG2 (using the back-up method which takes about 10 seconds, rather than from discs) and then only add the mods I really want to play for that game so I don't get too many problems, as a rule.

[zixi]

rofl that's the philosopher speaking certainly. My favourite alignment is chaotic good but it's not always possible to do that. I sometimes just SK whatever I want because I don't like being dictated to by anything/anyone.

 

I tend not to have Yoshi in the party these days. I SK Haer'Dalis into a fighter-thief because I tend to play bard. I vaguely remember his bit of 'Remorse' but I might be getting it confused with the story in 'Tortured Souls' which I played once, years ago, but it wasn't very stable and I don't think I completed it.

[Cal Jones]

It's funny actually - I've been playing this blasted game since it first came out and, for a long time, Yoshi never made my party because I always thought, what's the point? However, I'm taking him more and more often now. (I'm not so worried about the "XP drain" aspect because I generally only haul a party of five through SoA, since I hate booting anyone out for Sarevok in ToB. Although there's a mod somewhere that allows you to transfer Yoshi's XP to Imoen, in any case).

I actually enjoy him in party, and the Remorse component adds some extra poignency to his plight. If you haven't seen that part of it yet, give it a whirl.

[zixi]

since I hate booting anyone out for Sarevok in ToB.

 

Isn't it interesting how immersed we become?

I give them turns with me.

 

Lots of spoilers ahoy for various mods and components in SoA and ToB

 

Yoshi was always in my party until I installed TS and then I found I didn't want the companion so I quit taking him. I only really wanted that mod for the beautiful music in the very pretty Valygar Romance but since I've managed to buy the album I'm not so bothered. I used Nalia for the thief component but she drives me spare - I find myself becoming more and more ultra left by the second in her company. I've used Jan as well as at least he doesn't irritate me but I like HD a lot so the SK class edit seems to be the best route. I figure I've played the game so many times now that altering it doesn't seem such a crime.

 

I've just cleaned up the install so may try Yoshi's bit of 'Remorse'. I like Yoshi and never bore any ill feelings about what he'd done.

 

Sarevok fascinates me because he doesn't actually lie and weirdly I'd trust him. I've never asked for the geas and now with the mods added I always feel like hugging him when he tells Mel what to do with her offer and for his touching advice at the end. The couple of times I've chosen ascension, it's his words that I try not to think about because I know he is giving me heart-felt advice, not driven by any selfishness at all. Strangely I feel more 'sibling' affection for him than Imoen whose whining post Spellhold drives me crazy. I've taken to rescuing her only to give her money to find her own way back. (Kiv says it's best that way) and of course her skills are very low when we pick her up. It wasn't brought home to me that was the problem till Xan explained... and since then I've never actually taken her back. I pick her up for the Bodhi lair thing just in case her soul doesn't have TomTom and then I place her back in the Copper Coronet and get on with being a hero. With the extra mods added to ToB she makes a brief appearance and then says that the battle ahead is way too difficult and dangerous and scoots off so I'm not sure whether my instincts about her were right all along or she's getting her own back for being abandoned in Spellhold. Not that I blame her.. I kind of asked for it I guess...

[Cal Jones]

Oh yeah, I actually feel proud of Sarevok when he tells Melly to stick it. He's by far my favourite Bioware NPC - I just wish ToB was bigger so I could have him around for longer. And I'm always sad at his epilogue because it's the same whether you redeem him or not. I believe Remorse actually gives him an extra evil epilogue, but I've not seen it as, like you, I always redeem him.

 

As for Imoen, for a long time I didn't bother with her, partly because she irritated me and partly because I'd have a full party by the time I got to Spellhold (since I never used to take Yoshi and thus didn't have a slot for her).

 

As time's gone on, I feel a little more fond of her, and she no longer irritates me, so I take her along. With a party of five she can gain levels reasonably fast anyway.

 

My taste in party members does seem to have changed a great deal - characters who used to be regulars (Minsc, Keldorn, Jan) now rarely make the team, whereas Imoen, Yoshi and Valygar are always on the roster. I always feel more sorry for Yoshi than anything and it did annoy me that none of the other Bioware NPCs seemed to care beyond the "grr you betrayed us, you'll pay!"-type comments. One of the things I liked about the Keto mod, when I tried it, was that she actually gave a toss. (Even Angelo doesn't have much to say beyond "it's a shame but what can you do?" or somesuch, and the pair seemed to get on very well).

 

I think you'll enjoy his diary (the dates in it are 10 years out, actually, but don't worry about that) - just give the more forgiving reply when you turn his heart in at the temple and you'll get his effects from the priest. (This part doesn't seem to work if you have Turnabout installed - I guess because Turnabout checks to see if you took the heart to the temple and this interferes with Remorse, at least, that's my guess).

[zixi]

Spoilers...

 

My taste in party members does seem to have changed a great deal - characters who used to be regulars (Minsc, Keldorn, Jan) now rarely make the team, whereas Imoen, Yoshi and Valygar are always on the roster. I always feel more sorry for Yoshi than anything and it did annoy me that none of the other Bioware NPCs seemed to care beyond the "grr you betrayed us, you'll pay!"-type comments. One of the things I liked about the Keto mod, when I tried it, was that she actually gave a toss. (Even Angelo doesn't have much to say beyond "it's a shame but what can you do?" or somesuch, and the pair seemed to get on very well).

 

I liked Angelo’s opinions of the other NPCs and I always predicted them accurately so they obviously fitted with my expectations of his psychology. I imagine that he wouldn’t feel the responsibility that <CHARNAME> feels because he doesn’t operate like that. I took it to mean that he was really sad about Yoshi since he isn’t the kind of person who seems to regret other people’s misfortunes much and I don’t know he’d show it even if he did. If you've seen the horrors he's seen, I suspect you become used to hiding how you feel as a coping strategy. TBH I don’t have problems with people who don’t show how they feel! I have more problems with people who cry over everything because I’m never sure how you work out what’s the most serious problem and where one should start to put it right. Stoicism I can understand and thus Angelo's (PC's ascension) ending of ToB is exactly what I’d expect of him. I felt pity there but at the same time he wouldn’t expect that because he works on the principle that unless you can change something there’s not much point in making a fuss. I admire that.

 

 

Anyway, game is cleaned once more and I intend to try the Yoshi bit of ‘Remorse’. Still got ‘Edwin’ and ‘Xan’ installed though because Edwin makes me laugh and it’s such an easy romance for me to do ‘correctly’! I started a fresh game this time with a new PC – an archer and I must say it’s a lot easier to play than bard so I may put ‘Angelo’ back in later to follow the friendship route. I’m pretty certain that my PC could make a good friend to him!

[Sister Vigilante]

I have wondered if I couldn't have done more with that...but yes, Angelo has seen an uncommon number of men he likes meet unfortunate ends; partly (especially in Yoshi's case) because he likes men who remind him of himself, and men like himself often meet unfortunate ends. Although, he does have the sense that he tends to survive, cockroach-like, when in his view "better" men have died--something I believe he comments on at least once.

 

For all he repudiates Kara-Turn religion, though, the reincarnatory cosmic view may have effected his thinking to some extent. Thus few tragedies seem "final" for him. His mourning style, although it isn't shown, would mostly be to get drunk and pour out a 40-ounce (or the FR equivalent) at the crossroads--and he would expect the same of anyone who had come to care for him, if he were to finally push off. I guess this is reflected in his epilogues, in both the "happy" and "tragic" scenarios treating his death, in both of which he sort of plays it down.

 

 

I regret to say that Angelo doesn't have much separate "friendship" content--I always found these paths somewhat difficult to write (for similar reasons that I shy away from writing nuanced, branching romances)--Kulyok had to write Xan's for ToB. Angelo does have a few comic extras for a male PC. I imagine though, that from the point of view of what the player's imagination can fill in, it would be an interesting experience...

[zixi]

spoilers

 

That was my reading of his psychology certainly. I wonder if the ToB (ascension route) also implies finally a conscience which of course I’m not sure is present in SoA nor in the early parts of ToB. Perhaps like many people who convince themselves that their actions were justified he has a sneaking feeling they weren’t and his redemption is made via death. I don’t think he could do what Sarevok attempts to do. I’m not sure if Sarevok succeeds but I guess he has a go. I felt that the ‘cheerful’ acceptance of death was of someone who had finally been asked to pay the bill and had run out of excuses rather than someone who no longer had anything to live for. But maybe I’m bring cynical.

 

I’m sure Cal can put the positive Angelo slant on it for me.