Suggestion for mage component

[Nythrun]

Insect Plague uses an enemy-only projectile; you needn't worry about party members going suicide bomber with it.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

What I meant was, you can target the Insect Plague at an ally (i.e. accidentally in the heat of the battle) and it will spread over any enemies in the area (even invisible ones) while the ally himself won't be affected.

[DavidW]

I don't much like giving a saving throw (it adds yet more randomness) but I wondered about removing the casting penalty.

 

While this sounds neat in theory, I fear it may cause issues with older mods (and non-DS mods) which use CheckStatLT(Myself,100,SPELLFAILUREMAGE) for detecting Insect Plague instead of !CheckStatGT(Myself,0,CLERIC_INSECT_PLAGUE) (DS version).

 

Therefore, I'd be more inclined to add a saving throw to the spell and/or remove the area effect (which is cheesy anyway since you can target party members/summons and have the effect spread onto invisible enemies).

 

Point taken... on the other hand, for the reasons discussed before, I don't much like the idea of adding yet another saveable spell. So it might be the least worst option.

 

And actually come to think about it, the problems caused are just that wizards in these other mods will try to spellcast even when insect-plagued. I'm not at all sure that's not the best strategy anyway (esp. if they've got stoneskins).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

And actually come to think about it, the problems caused are just that wizards in these other mods will try to spellcast even when insect-plagued. I'm not at all sure that's not the best strategy anyway (esp. if they've got stoneskins).

 

But what about Clerics with CheckStatLT(Myself,100,SPELLFAILUREPRIEST) then? Unless they are druids they can't cast Stoneskin(Ironskin).

[Guest Loz]

The insect plague change may cause some minor incompatibility, but i would say the breach change aswell as the changes to the antimagic spells are already causing targeting to be significantly different from the standard game. Most enemies not expecting scsii will probably breach themselves. In this respect i think scsii has already become a kind of 'all or nothing' when it comes to the improved ai which i guess is why David wrote the imroved ai for ascension. I think at this point, for any other improved ai to be compatible with scsii it needs to be written with it in mind(though perhaps this is only true for spellcasters). Come to think of it, i believe melissan in ascension uses breach, perhaps it might be worth taking a look at that.

 

On the scrolls thing, i don't think it would overpower the party at all to have them find a few extra mid level scrolls, I already end up having to sell lots of scrolls of fireball etc. because i never get round to using them. The thing is, the scrolls that very useful to the party are the ones that are high enough level that they can either not cast them.. or only get a spell slot or two for them. The other ones that are very powerful are the ones that are producing unique effects(often used on clones) such as wish, time stop etc. I don't think it would be too much at all for say a 15th level mage to have 2 scrolls of fireball and a scroll of mirror image, a 20th level mage to have 2 scrolls of chain lightning, a scroll of stoneskin and a wand of frost for eg. In fact many enemies in random encounters i have noticed to have a little stash of scrolls at about this level. In ToB wands also seem to often be on enemy mages, i remember in the improved yaga shura fight just about every mage seems to have one, though they do not make good use of them. If the overabundance of scrolls is a real worry perhaps they could just be given to certain boss mages. I just find it strange that 'Bandit Mage' the level 10 mage that who is slain in act 2 has a big stash of scrolls and a wand, but lavok the ancient necromancer who has studied magic for hundred of years or irenicus the level 30 elf wizard that knows ancient rituals of ascension travel without any kind of repetoire of scrolls.

 

Finally on the stoneskin thing... would it be possible for the actors to at least hold off buffing till after the play. Honestly i dispute the idea that any mage in athkatla would buff themselves with stoneskin every day, as i think your skin being made of stone might have some side effects on your every day life that i'm sure you can imagine. Perhaps if you expected trouble, but the actors particuarly i feel would not all buff themselves with stoneskin before performing a play. Maybe i should just pretend they aren't grey.

[Guest Guest]

I have to say on the metagaming point, that to be honest everyone here is metagaming to a degree since likely the only people installing a tactical mod will be people who have completed the game several times. The thing is i enjoy trying out different tactics on boss encounters and seeing what works - perhaps this playstyle seems off to some but its what i enjoy doing. This unfortunately isn't very easy when the mage bosses are changing their spell triggers each time.

I see that must make things annoying. As always SCSII tends to be based around my play style, and actually I'm only on my third playthrough, so I guess that affects things... to be honest (and this may sound silly) one of the reasons for so much randomisation is that I don't want to spoil the game for myself too much by having to peek at all the encounters! (I mean, obviously I remember the major ones, but...)

 

Perhaps they could randomise themselves on install as per the spell selection? I have no idea if that would make things more difficult to code, maybe they'd need some kind of item to show what triggers they had. The main problem is enemies changing their triggers when you reload right next to them.

 

On the difficulty of implementing scrolls, if it is the scripting that is a problem, could they not just use the same targeting blocks as the standard varities of the spells and use a different action block. Again i don't real know much about your code, thought i must admit to having taken a little peak. I'm sure you'll come to the best decision with regards to what will work best in your mod.

[Guest Guest]

This discussion is very interesting

 

With respect to the Insect Plague "no more casting failure" nerf idea, I agree with aVENGER that it would become a third scripts break-maker. Risky.

 

If at all, I would vote for the save penalty at -4, and anyway it seems to me that you are forgetting Dispel Magic, Greater Malison, Doom, Glitterdust and the like. Besides, the uselfuness of the aforementioned spells is somewhat pointless if you can spare them when reach Insect Plague, Abi Dalzim's or the like.

 

Additionally, i concur with the idea that savings throws always make combat more unpredictable, which is nicer, because it inserts a chance to loss/win every single battle even if your party is far superior or far weaker than the enemy.

[Guest Guest]

I see people saying that the only ones wanting to use mods like SCS/SCS II are those who've played the game through before, but that's not true! I played BG + TotSC when they first came out, and I've also done a couple of chapters of BG2 in the past (but I had to abandon that game, unfortunately).

 

Anyway, I like the look of a lot of things SCS and SCS II do, so would like to use them when playing through Tutu and BG2 + ToB for the very first time. I'll be playing on Normal difficulty and using (amongst other things) 'Maximum HP Creatures: All creatures' from BG2 Tweaks. So could anyone recommend what components of SCS and SCS II I should be using?

 

What I really don't want are spellcaster battles to be a grind, where there's always going to be a set strategy to win. I'll probably have two spellcasters in my party, so I guess one could concentrate on damage-dealing spells and the other on disabling spells (including removal of enemy spell protections).

 

So is there a set of recommended SCS/SCS II components for players who aren't already familiar with the games?

[Caedwyr]

Alternatively, you could add immunity to Insect plague to Fireshield: red, blue as well as Shield of the Archons. They all put an aura of flame around the caster, which supposedly should prevent insect plague from bothering the caster. This wouldn't really break other mods, though you may get some suboptimal targeting at creatures already protected by one of the three spells mentioned above.

[Wisp]

I see people saying that the only ones wanting to use mods like SCS/SCS II are those who've played the game through before, but that's not true! I played BG + TotSC when they first came out, and I've also done a couple of chapters of BG2 in the past (but I had to abandon that game, unfortunately).

 

Anyway, I like the look of a lot of things SCS and SCS II do, so would like to use them when playing through Tutu and BG2 + ToB for the very first time. I'll be playing on Normal difficulty and using (amongst other things) 'Maximum HP Creatures: All creatures' from BG2 Tweaks. So could anyone recommend what components of SCS and SCS II I should be using?

 

What I really don't want are spellcaster battles to be a grind, where there's always going to be a set strategy to win. I'll probably have two spellcasters in my party, so I guess one could concentrate on damage-dealing spells and the other on disabling spells (including removal of enemy spell protections).

 

So is there a set of recommended SCS/SCS II components for players who aren't already familiar with the games?

I actually think it'd be easier for new players in one regard. When I first installed SCSII, I knew my way around the game pretty well, so I had preconceptions about what would work and what wouldn't. Saying that I got surprised doesn't quite describe it.

 

Spellcasters should prove plenty challenging and diverse.

For your own ones, I'd recommend mages over sorcerers until you are familiar with the spell system. Having them specialise to the degree you proposed may not be wise however. Should one get disabled, you also lose out on what that caster could do. Giving them both a varied repertoire also means you can eg. breach twice in one round, or eg. cast two horrid wiltings in one round (normally, you can only cast one spell per round per caster).

 

As for components, I'd say it's purely a matter of preference.

Though I suppose you could avoid installing components like the Improved ones. They generally make the game more difficult in a different way than eg. the Smarter series of components. Getting familiarised with the game while using the AI enhancing components might be preferable to doing it with a full monty install.

 

Other specific components that may be less suitable for an inexperienced player are

 

Revert Greater Restoration back to only affecting one creature

Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to ToB/SoA mages

Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to ToB/SoA priests

and maybe

Remove unrealistically helpful items from certain areas

Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from the game

Party's items are taken from them in Spellhold

 

Have fun

[Guest Guest]

Alternatively, you could add immunity to Insect plague to Fireshield: red, blue as well as Shield of the Archons. They all put an aura of flame around the caster, which supposedly should prevent insect plague from bothering the caster. This wouldn't really break other mods, though you may get some suboptimal targeting at creatures already protected by one of the three spells mentioned above

 

Yep, i like your idea. It also enchances realism and i think is complementary with save penalty idea, too.

 

In addition, though, it might be better if David would consider the possibility of coordinate his scripting skills and efforts with the Divine Remix and Spellpack authors instead of introducing all the changes by himself, because it shall reduce his workload and ensure not only technical but conceptual compatibility as well with the aforementioned mods. (this would be of course, subject to mutual agreement and maybe David just may not like or disagree with the above named mods)

 

SirLancelot

 

That's my point of view, anyway.

[DavidW]

And actually come to think about it, the problems caused are just that wizards in these other mods will try to spellcast even when insect-plagued. I'm not at all sure that's not the best strategy anyway (esp. if they've got stoneskins).

 

But what about Clerics with CheckStatLT(Myself,100,SPELLFAILUREPRIEST) then? Unless they are druids they can't cast Stoneskin(Ironskin).

 

Fair point. I'm still not sure it isn't worth it, though - I'm very pro compatibility, but it isn't a shibboleth.

[DavidW]

So is there a set of recommended SCS/SCS II components for players who aren't already familiar with the games?

 

My "recommendations" don't carry any more force than anyone else's, but for what it's worth: I'd certainly skip the High-Level Ability components for anyone except "selected ToB Mages/Priests". I'd probably skip "spellcasting demiliches" (I haven't really had playtesting reports on it yet, but I suspect it's seriously hard). I'd probably install the second mage buff setting and the first cleric one (that should create a bit of variety in who buffs when). I've just played through the "remove items in Spellhold" component myself and I think it basically works to keep you on your toes without being infuriating, but others may disagree. You might possibly want to skip the Improved Lairs (Abazigal, Fire Giants, Sendai), if only because that way you get to see the designer-intended versions first; possibly that's also true for Improved Torgal. Probably I'd play on the "slightly improved difficulty" setting of Improved Spawning.

[Demivrgvs]

Well, I take advantage of the discussion to promote my Spell Revisions mod which is going to be released very soon, here at G3.

As of V1 (which I've already sent to Cam few days ago) I've done the following:

- Summon Insect doesn't allow anymore a save to avoid being affected by the animation/damage, causes spell failure 100% instead of 50% but allows a save vs. spell at -2 to avoid this effect, and target can also save vs. breath to avoid -2 penalty to thac0 and AC;

- Insect Plague and Creeping Doom are mostly unchanged but they now allow a save vs. spell (respectively at -4 and -6) to avoid 100% spell failure.

I've taken into consideration but not yet implemented:

- Fire Shields protect from insect spells

- Gust of Wind (which replaces Zone of Sweet Air) "dispels" insect spells

In addition, though, it might be better if David would consider the possibility of coordinate his scripting skills and efforts with the Divine Remix and Spellpack authors instead of introducing all the changes by himself, because it shall reduce his workload and ensure not only technical but conceptual compatibility as well with the aforementioned mods. (this would be of course, subject to mutual agreement and maybe David just may not like or disagree with the above named mods)

I would be more than glad to do such a thing. Actually we seem to share similar opinions about spells, and I've implemented pratically all of his spell tweaks. Furthmore I was going to ask him anyway to cooperate for scripts regarding summoned genies, demons, and so on. Whenever possible I'll strive for compatibility (technical and conceptual) between the two mods, if only because I'm never going to play without SCS II installed!

[SirLancelot]

would be more than glad to do such a thing. Actually we seem to share similar opinions about spells, and I've implemented pratically all of his spell tweaks. Furthmore I was going to ask him anyway to cooperate for scripts regarding summoned genies, demons, and so on. Whenever possible I'll strive for compatibility (technical and conceptual) between the two mods, if only because I'm never going to play without SCS II installed!

 

And Galactycon? Don't you like his work? Maybe you three could work together, since Galactycon also struggles for a more challenging experience and quality without disbalance the game.