Viconia's Religion!

[NiGHTMARE]

Not all of Bhaal's faithful, only assassins who worshipped him. His priests, monks and general non-assassin followers were left very much alive.

[MrEnnigma]

Perhaps the reason she isn't a "good" Sharran is because she's still not sure about her faith. Perhaps turning to Shar was an act of desperation on Viconia's part. She needed protection and found it in Shar. Now that she's enjoyed that protection for awhile she's starting to question if it's actually what she wants. Every form of refuge has it's price, maybe she's starting to consider if the one she's paying is too high. Anyway, just a few thoughts.

[NiGHTMARE]

Most Forgotten Realms deities are perfectly happy for their worshippers to embrace only one or two of the aspects of their portfolio rather than all of them. Even Cyric has non-violent worshippers, who venerate only his intrigue, deception and illusion aspects.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Most Forgotten Realms deities are perfectly happy for their worshippers to embrace only one or two of the aspects of their portfolio rather than all of them.  Even Cyric has non-violent worshippers, who venerate only his intrigue, deception and illusion aspects.

 

This isn't a portfolio issue... What I'm talking about with Viconia, is a direct disregard of her dogma which is more important than Shar's portfolio. In fact, Viconia doesn't appear to follow even one sentance of it. Here is a list of Shar's portfolios - Caverns, dark, dungeons, forgetfulness, loss, night, secrets, the Underdark. Shar's portfolio tells us almost nothing about what her worshipers do or believe, therefore I put to you that the deity's dogma is much more important than the list of things they are a god of. (I might add that Viconia doesn't do any thing that appears to advance the cause of anything on the list of Shar's portfolios, anyway.)

 

 

Just for reference, Shar's dogma:

 

Reveal secrets only to fellow members of the faithful. Never follow hope or turn to promises of success. Quench the light of the moon (agents and items of Selune) whenever you find it, and hide from it when you cannot prevail. The dark is a time to act, not to wait. It is forbidden to strive to better your lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by the faithful of the Dark Deity. Consorting with the faithful of good deities is a sin, except in business dealings or to corrupt them from their beliefs. Obey ranking clergy unless it would result in your own death.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Perhaps the reason she isn't a "good" Sharran is because she's still not sure about her faith. Perhaps turning to Shar was an act of desperation on Viconia's part. She needed protection and found it in Shar. Now that she's enjoyed that protection for awhile she's starting to question if it's actually what she wants. Every form of refuge has it's price, maybe she's starting to consider if the one she's paying is too high. Anyway, just a few thoughts.

 

If the whole of this were up to me, I'd be agreeing wholeheartedly with you. It certainly reflects how I see her, because that's the way she behaves. Sometimes she behaves as if she were still a worshiper of Lolth, sometimes she acts like she's not really sure of herself, and never did I see her try to do anything that would advance the cause of Shar (which is something priests are supposed to do).

 

I think part of the problem boils down to the fact that Bioware doesn't have a good track record with making truely evil characters or even game paths for evil PCs to follow. Either they're just schoolyard bullies, or else they are well... just not evil.

[Domi]

That's what Viconia herself says about her conversion (charmed dialogue from BG1, hence she most probably is not lying) :

 

I come from the city of Menzoberranzan. My family was slaughtered, and I was forced to flee to the surface. When I reached the realms of light, the traitor Lolth abandoned me. I would have been lost had it not been for the divine Shar! She took me in and gave me the will and strength to survive!

 

Which makes me to subscribe to NM's theory that she had had a vision from Shar - she seems to refer to the direct experience and never mentions middlemen (ie Sharran priests) It also seems that she never willingly thought "echanging" Lolth for someone else - just got help when she needed it from Shar and was greatful ever since.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

That's what Viconia herself says about her conversion (charmed dialogue from BG1, hence she most probably is not lying) :

 

I come from the city of Menzoberranzan. My family was slaughtered, and I was forced to flee to the surface. When I reached the realms of light, the traitor Lolth abandoned me. I would have been lost had it not been for the divine Shar! She took me in and gave me the will and strength to survive!

 

Which makes me to subscribe to NM's theory that she had had a vision from Shar - she seems to refer to the direct experience and never mentions middlemen (ie Sharran priests) It also seems that she never willingly thought "echanging" Lolth for someone else - just got help when she needed it from Shar and was greatful ever since.

 

 

Three points here.

 

1) The Viconia in BG1 isn't the same as the Viconia in BG2. Their continuity editor must have been asleep on the job, I think. (Actually, I've found that games tend to do without such things as a continuity editor. This leads to many inconsistancies in game series. The NWN series is the perfect example - they even got game details wrong. (Aribeth was an elf in NWN, but her race was listed as half-elf in HotU, for example.))

 

2) A charm spell does not compell someone to go against their basic nature, if they'd lie to friends about something, they'd still lie under a charm spell. What she said could still have been a lie, and it certainly doesn't entirely match up with what she tells the PC about her past in BG2... Since I'm taking BG2 as the basis of my portrayal of Viconia, I will be using BG2 as the basis of my "canon" regarding her.

 

3) Why would Shar, a human goddess, go out of Her way to recruit a renegade drow with a track record for disobeying her goddess when it suited her?

 

However, having said all that, I'm not totally dismissing the idea out of hand. That Viconia had a vision is one explanation for her seeming ignorance, but you'd think that after imparting such a vision, Shar would guide Viconia in the direction of someone who could teach her the ways of the Church of Shar... But that doesn't seem to have happened at all. It's an odd lapse.

[BobTokyo]

However, having said all that, I'm not totally dismissing the idea out of hand. That Viconia had a vision is one explanation for her seeming ignorance, but you'd think that after imparting such a vision, Shar would guide Viconia in the direction of someone who could teach her the ways of the Church of Shar... But that doesn't seem to have happened at all. It's an odd lapse.

You're forgetting the fact that FR gods, according to their depiction in the Avatar series, are, well, morons.

[Domi]

Well, I wastely prefer BG1 over BG2, but it does not matter

 

Taking in a renegade drow is not that unreasonable, providing that Shar is interested in the Underdark; for all we know she saw Viiconia as her messanger/tool to go back and start recruiting from Lolth flock. Why no guidance? Viconia perhaps does not need one, or does not like the idea of guidance - Viconia if she saw Shar probably knows more than any priest could teach her; she just does not seem like a person who responds to well or seeks guidance. BG1 Viconia that is.

[BigRob]

3) Why would Shar, a human goddess, go out of Her way to recruit a renegade drow with a track record for disobeying her goddess when it suited her?

To spite Lolth and deny her vengeance? Viconia might be given more freedom than the average priest of Shar because Shar has a few things in mind for her future and Shar would know that Vicci doesn't take well to orders, so it's easier to nudge her along the path.

[Bri]

Actually, I don't have a hard time believing that Shar would try to recruit a former priestess of Lolth to turn her against the Spider Goddess. If two deities would be at each other's throat because of similar portfolios, it would be those two.

 

Now, whether one thinks Shar was a legitimate choice, that is a different debate.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Actually, I don't have a hard time believing that Shar would try to recruit a former priestess of Lolth to turn her against the Spider Goddess.  If two deities would be at each other's throat because of similar portfolios, it would be those two. 

 

Now, whether one thinks Shar was a legitimate choice, that is a different debate.

 

 

One of my friends thinks a better choice for Viconia would have been Loviatar. I, personally, think she has much more in common with Shar, though.

 

However, having said that... Viconia is in a state of flux. She's not entirely settled on who she is, and she keeps trying to pretend that she's this big mean drow, when honestly inside she's hurt and vulnerable and more than a little lost.

 

Because she's in this flux state, it's possible for the PC to guide her actions to the point of changing her alignment in ToB. If she was a good solid follower of Shar, this would not be possible. Also she'd be more of a hinderence than a help in the party, since she's not supposed to "follow hope or turn to promises of success". (She talks about victory and being trumphant all the time, for the sake of the gods!)

 

I also think they didn't handle the alignment shift terribly well. After switching to True Neutral, she'd cease getting spells from Shar. Shar doesn't have True Neutral clergy (even in 2nd Edition, though her worshipers could be of any alignment), and True Neutral is the one alignment that's the exception to the One Step Rule. (Basically the One Step Rule goes like this - a Divine Spellcaster must have an alignment within one step of their deity's, with the exception of True Neutral. Only deities with a True Neutral alignment may have True Neutral clerics. Therefore Shar, being NE, can only have CE, NE and LE priests, a shift away from evil would have the same effect as a paladin shifting away from good.)

 

The distinction between worshipers and clergy is fairly obvious I would hope.

 

Anyway, I'm a touch closer to working out how she found Shar. I also have a vague idea why She reached out to Viconia in the first place. I'll post more details when I have them if people want me to.

[NiGHTMARE]

Loviator? Viconia isn't a dominatrix!!!

 

Anyway, even though Faiths & Avatars suggests otherwise, Warriors and Priests of the Realms has a group of speciality priests of Shar called Darkcloaks (not to be confused with another type of her speciality priests, the Nightcloaks) who can be Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or even Neutral Good. Their beliefs and activities are very different from the typical worshipper of Shar:

 

Darkcloaks believe that life is full of pain, and only the emotional oblivion of Shar makes it tolerable. Unlike their nightbringer brethren, the darkcloaks actually have compassion towards the sufferers of mental anguish.  Preferring to cultivate a reputation as mysterious folk, the darkcloaks frame their oracular proclamations in obscure riddles and mysterious symbols.

 

In the Kivan mod (and later LoI), I plan to have Viconia become a Darkcloak when her alignment changes.

[Guest Aristothenes]

Yep, the event you mentioned was in Tantras, 2nd book of Avatar Trilogy.

What I'd like to see though, is a KidsWar, i.e. you against Xvim...just a mod idea, for anyone who's fishing...

[Guest Aristothenes]

(Points to above post): About why no assassins, all killed then. But all's a pretty strong word.