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Zandilar

Viconia's Religion!

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Heya,

 

Loviator? Viconia isn't a dominatrix!!! :D

 

No, she's not. Nor is she a submissive, though some of her dialogue seems to indicate otherwise. (Yes, I hate loathe and detest her romance with a male PC...)

 

Anyway, the most common misconception of priestesses of Loviatar is that they are dominatrixes. Loviatar is the goddess of pain not of domination. Want a dominatrix priestess? Try a priestess of Bane. :groucho: Bane is the god of tyranny among other things.

 

Anyway, even though Faiths & Avatars suggests otherwise, Warriors and Priests of the Realms has a group of speciality priests of Shar called Darkcloaks (not to be confused with another type of her speciality priests, the Nightcloaks) who can be Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or even Neutral Good.  Their beliefs and activities are very different from the typical worshipper of Shar:

 

Darkcloaks believe that life is full of pain, and only the emotional oblivion of Shar makes it tolerable. Unlike their nightbringer brethren, the darkcloaks actually have compassion towards the sufferers of mental anguish.  Preferring to cultivate a reputation as mysterious folk, the darkcloaks frame their oracular proclamations in obscure riddles and mysterious symbols.

 

In the Kivan mod (and later LoI), I plan to have Viconia become a Darkcloak when her alignment changes.

 

This is very interesting... But it is not the way I see her going. I feel Viconia to be quite a passionate woman, and emotional oblivion just doesn't sit well with some of the things she says in both SoA and ToB.

 

They (the Darkcloaks) seem to me to be some kind of attempt to put goths in a fantasy setting. I wouldn't allow them IMC. ??? (At least not without some evil plot going on behind them, and the darkcloaks being a front to win worshipers for Shar.) (Not to mention, since I run/play 3.5e they'd be disallowed under the One Step rule. :()

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This is very interesting... But it is not the way I see her going. I feel Viconia to be quite a passionate woman, and emotional oblivion just doesn't sit well with some of the things she says in both SoA and ToB.

Uh.. who say Viconia's not a dom? :groucho:

 

I think a Darkcloak would be an entirely appropriate direction to take Viconia, especially if we keep her NE. (no, NiGHTMARE, I'm not backtracking :( ) If a follower must follow every tenant of their patron, is there any god/dess for her? Does being drow limit 'her' choices?

 

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, Loviatar is no better than Shar. (cough) :D

 

Going in the other direction, I cannot see her just deciding to worship, say, Sune, either. ???

Edited by Cybersquirt

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No, she's not. Nor is she a submissive, though some of her dialogue seems to indicate otherwise. (Yes, I hate loathe and detest her romance with a male PC...)

Viconia IS submissive, it's right there in the romance, written by whoever wrote it at BioWARE, and if BioWARE write Viconia as doing something submissive, it must be in her character to do so. But the case I know you're thinking of is not that she's submitting, when she asks for the male PC to sleep with her, she wants comfort. It's not like she can go "Oi come over here, I'm scared, shag me now, male."

And if you hate the male romance (where most of her character is explored) then why are you writing this mod, seems like you want to change her to be like something you want her to be, rather than what she is...... IMHO.

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The women have power over the men, they have titles such as 'whipmistress', they "believe that true pleasure is only won through pain". Novices are told to "act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as those who deserve it or would be most hurt by it", and their mistresses remind them that "where a whip is, there am I. Fear me - and yet long for me."

 

Nope, I'm not talking about dominatrixes, I'm talking about Loviatans :groucho:.

 

If that's not enough to convince you, there's this picture. It's lacking the kind of leather outfit we'd normally associate with dominatrixes, but that sort of leather doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms.

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I agree with Cybersquirt - I can't actually think of any deities who are 100% appropriate for Viconia, in either her NE or N incarnations.

 

NE Viconia would obviously have needed a deity who accepted NE priests, it's very doubtful she'd have gone for a male deity, and I doubt any of the non-human gods would have accepted her. That didn't exactly leave must choice:

 

- Auril

- Beshaba

- Loviator

- Shar

- Talona

- Umberlee

- Waukeen

 

As for when Viconia switches to true neutral, if she were to gain a new deity valid choices would be:

 

- Chauntea

- Mielliki

- Selune

- Sharess

- Shialla

- Sune

- Tymora

- Umberlee

- Waukeen

 

Of course many of the deities listed above are entirely inappropriate for Viconia (f.ex why would she worship Waukeen or a nature deity?), and whether or not they would all accept Viconia's worship is very debatable.

 

BTW if Leira were still alive IMHO she'd be a good choice for Neutral Viconia, but unfortunately that particular goddess is dead.

Edited by NiGHTMARE

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And people wonder why I only use the FR setting for comedy campaigns. :groucho:

 

EDIT: Refering to the Priestess pic, not Nighmare's analysis.

Edited by BobTokyo

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Guest Hell
No, she's not. Nor is she a submissive, though some of her dialogue seems to indicate otherwise. (Yes, I hate loathe and detest her romance with a male PC...)

Viconia IS submissive, it's right there in the romance, written by whoever wrote it at BioWARE, and if BioWARE write Viconia as doing something submissive, it must be in her character to do so. But the case I know you're thinking of is not that she's submitting, when she asks for the male PC to sleep with her, she wants comfort. It's not like she can go "Oi come over here, I'm scared, shag me now, male."

And if you hate the male romance (where most of her character is explored) then why are you writing this mod, seems like you want to change her to be like something you want her to be, rather than what she is...... IMHO.

Hmmm... that is rather narrow minded of you Guest. There is submission and there is manipulation. Viconia is known to be manipulative to get what she wants. She did it with the merchant who saved her and she did it with the PC. Submission as in SM is about humiliation and total control. What Viconia is doing is getting what she wants the way she know she is going to get it from a male in the surface. I say that is smart and rather resourceful, rather than submissive. After all some people think of sex and sex appeal as strengths and women using them as using a power that they have at their disposal.

 

The one thing that I do notice is that you hate the idea that Viconia would be multifaceted rather than a submissive wench to a male PC like you I think she is. Sex can be power and Viconia knows how to use it. She is not a "dumb blonde." There is a expression that I think well represents the Viconia I see: "grab them by the balls and they will follow." So she is not submissive and she is getting what she wants at whichever cost, following Shar may really describe who she is, hurt as hell, angry at the world, and out to get whatever she can get out of it for her power and gratification.

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The women have power over the men, they have titles such as 'whipmistress', they "believe that true pleasure is only won through pain".  Novices are told to "act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as those who deserve it or would be most hurt by it", and their mistresses remind them that "where a whip is, there am I.  Fear me - and yet long for me."

 

Nope, I'm not talking about dominatrixes, I'm talking about Loviatans :(.

(snicker) Well, er... maybe for another mod... Uhm... :x

 

I was referring to this:

Loviatar, the Maiden of Pain, is the goddess of hurt and agony, and the patroness of torturers. She makes her home in the lower planes of Gehenna. Her symbol is a nine-stranded whip, with barbs at the tip of each strand.

Loviatar teaches that the world is full of pain and torment, and the best that one can do is to suffer those blows that cannot be avoided, and to deal as much pain back to those who offend. Opponents tend to avoid the priest of Loviatar, since murder is the least that they will do in revenge against insults to their goddess.

 

Her portfolio is Pain, Hurt, Torture.

 

Uhm.. from what you write, Nightmare, sounds like an S&M freak (no, I don't mean that offensively) took "torture" and ran with it. ???

 

..just have her worship Sharess, then, and get it over with. :groucho:

 

.. but that sort of leather doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms

That's not leather. :D

Edited by Cybersquirt

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Heya,

 

The women have power over the men, they have titles such as 'whipmistress', they "believe that true pleasure is only won through pain".  Novices are told to "act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as those who deserve it or would be most hurt by it", and their mistresses remind them that "where a whip is, there am I.  Fear me - and yet long for me."

 

Nope, I'm not talking about dominatrixes, I'm talking about Loviatans :(.

 

If that's not enough to convince you, there's this picture.  It's lacking the kind of leather outfit we'd normally associate with dominatrixes, but that sort of leather doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms.

 

 

Domination is not the same as Sado-masochism - which is what you've clearly described.

 

If you were to say that what you described was domination to anyone in the BDSM scene, they'd be very quick to correct you.

 

Loviatar may be the biggest bully/dominatrix of them all, but that hardly means all her worshipers or clergy are. :groucho: Her portfoilo does not contain the word dominance or domination in it, and neither does her dogma. They are both about pain, pure and unadulterated - inflicting it on everyone regardless of if they enjoy it or not. They are taught to endure pain, to revel in it, to acknowledge that life is pain. And despite all that, Loviatar is a very subtle goddess. Her faithful are instructed to temper their pain with mercy, because unexpected kindnesses make suffering all the more hurtful. They are also told that unswerving cruelty is more likely to turn people against them, and therefore they should be careful to avoid that. They are told that discipline is important, but you'd expect that from a Lawful goddess, and this is not as it applies to everyone else - it's as it applies to themselves. "There is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline," to quote directly (italics are mine).

 

Whipmistress = mistress of the whip, not mistress with a whip. ??? (As in swordmaster is a master of the sword.)

Edited by Zandilar

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The "act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as those who deserve it or would be most hurt by it", and "where a whip is, there am I. Fear me - and yet long for me" quotes are also from official sources.

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Anyway, I'm a touch closer to working out how she found Shar.  I also have a vague idea why She reached out to Viconia in the first place. I'll post more details when I have them if people want me to. 

Would love to see them.

Domination is not the same as Sado-masochism - which is what you've clearly described.

 

If you were to say that what you described was domination to anyone in the BDSM scene, they'd be very quick to correct you.

True.

Loviatar may be the biggest bully/dominatrix of them all, but that hardly means all her worshipers or clergy are.  Her portfoilo does not contain the word dominance or domination in it, and neither does her dogma. They are both about pain, pure and unadulterated - inflicting it on everyone regardless of if they enjoy it or not. They are taught to endure pain, to revel in it, to acknowledge that life is pain. And despite all that, Loviatar is a very subtle goddess. Her faithful are instructed to temper their pain with mercy, because unexpected kindnesses make suffering all the more hurtful. They are also told that unswerving cruelty is more likely to turn people against them, and therefore they should be careful to avoid that. They are told that discipline is important, but you'd expect that from a Lawful goddess, and this is not as it applies to everyone else - it's as it applies to themselves. "There is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline," to quote directly (italics are mine).

I agree. It's about expression. Some followers might choose the dominatrix route, some might become poisoners, others might take a more emotional route. The point is to inflict pain not how it is inflicted. It requires a delicate balance whichever form it takes. All that said, I just don't see Viccy as a Loviatan. When she inflicts pain it's to get what she wants, not because she gets any real enjoyment out of it. Not saying she doesn't enjoy a little just saying it's not done for the same reasons a Loviatan would enjoy it. Shar I can see for reasons I've already mentioned. I can also see Sharess due to Viccy's preferred means of getting what she wants...not to mention I'm sure Sharess would take great glee in taking followers from Shar.

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A Loviatan definitely wouldn't be a poisoner - that's the sort of thing their hated enemies, the Talonites, get up to. Loviatans prefer inflicting overt rather than covert pain, simply because they probably won't be around to enjoy the latter type of pain as it occurs.

Edited by NiGHTMARE

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Granted I haven't read this whole thread yet, so if someone has already basically said this then I apologise, but here's my take on how Viconia found Shar:

 

My understanding of the Sharran faith is they wear masks and hoods when observing their rites, this provides anonymity to each memmber, and amusement to Shar as she sometimes observes her followers betraying each other.

 

Anyway, travelling amoung surfacers, Viconia would also wear a hood and cloak to disguise her identity. I don't find it too much of a stretch that while looking for some dark secluded place to hide in a large-ish city, she would come across a coven of Sharrans (for want of a better collective noun) and listen from a discrete distance.

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she never makes any mention of being part of a temple or any sort of community, even having learned from a sharran. The concept of a vision makes sense, but why would a human godess go out of her way to give a (then) low level drow cleric a vision. What happened imo is Vic heard of shar from non-faithful and began to pray to the dark goddess, gaining some power (i believe low lvl spells in fr are based on the clerics faith, not actual power given by a god), over the decades shar came to notice this priesstes and started officially granting her spells.

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