Super happy fun lucky thingy?

[Miloch]

A. The Fixpack offers several Optional But Cool PnP components. These should be BG2 Tweaks material and have no place being packaged with the Fixpack.

Maybe so, but they are optional, meaning you don't have to install them and you don't have to avoid the fixpack just based on that.

 

And maybe you don't feel like getting into it, but if you have issues with the fixpack, you should report them clearly and fully so you don't have to resort to something like Baldurdash. At least then the issues have some chance of getting addressed rather than none. If you've done so before, link please... who knows, maybe I'll agree with you, though that doesn't mean the fixpackers will do anything about it.

 

And yes, this Super Unhappy Unlucky Thingy should be fixed and probably spun off into the G3 Debugging Suite, which also needs some revision. Cam's been ignoring it for a while. I think the main reason it's in the Fixpack is that it fixes bugs that might not impact players, but might impact modders. It's not like there's always a solid line between those two.

[Wounded_Lion]

And maybe you don't feel like getting into it, but if you have issues with the fixpack, you should report them clearly and fully so you don't have to resort to something like Baldurdash.

 

I like you, Miloch, so I deleted the angry words that came to mind.

 

I don't feel that I have any obligation to the Fixpack community at all. I'll post my grievances if and when I choose. I'm not overly motivated to do so of late because a suggestion I recently made in good spirit was totally blown off without even a "That won't work because of X" or a "Yes, but you'll have to code it yourself because we're honestly busy".

 

However, in the spirit of community (which is, I think, what motivated you to post the above), here are some of my general grievances. Take em, leave em, whatever, I don't want to waste more of my time on this. Maybe I'll post my grievances with specific fixes someday when I've got a lot of free time and had a lot of caffeine.

 

 

1. PnP Optional But Cool components should be BG2 Tweaks material and have no place being packaged with the Fixpack.

 

The following OBC components:

 

a. Remove Dual-Classing Restriction from Archers and Stalkers

b. Change Free Action to Protect Against Stun

 

could remain because the components undo fixes that drastically alter established aspects of the game.

 

The following OBC components:

 

a. Party Gets XP for Sending Keldorn to Reconcile With Maria

b. Improved Spell Animations

c. Cromwell's Forging Actually Takes a Day

d. Ghreyfain's Holy Symbol Fixes

e. Remove Second Attribute Bonus for Evil Path in Wrath Hell Trial

f. Additional Script Fixes

g. Bard Song Fixes

h. Wizard Slayers Cause Miscast Magic on Ranged Attacks

i. Additional Alignment Fixes

 

could remain because they are technically fixes, just ones we can't justify with dev. intent.

 

2. The Beta Core Fixes component shouldn't exist. Fixes should be tested and certified before being released at all. This isn't a mod, it's a fixpack, and bugs are a different matter in the realm of fixpacks. Every fuck-up damages the Fixpack's reputation. The Deva/Fallen-Deva bug that I brought to your attention recently is a prime example (that wasn't even Beta, twas in the Core fixes).

 

3. The Super Happy Fun Lucky Modder Pack should be provided seperately (not packaged with the Fixpack) in the Tools and Resources section of the G3 website.

 

4. Full, detailed documentation needs to be provided with the download.

 

aWL

[devSin]

I don't feel that I have any obligation to the Fixpack community at all. I'll post my grievances if and when I choose. I'm not overly motivated to do so of late because a suggestion I recently made in good spirit was totally blown off without even a "That won't work because of X" or a "Yes, but you'll have to code it yourself because we're honestly busy".

What suggestion? I don't recall any recent feedback that was dismissed without any comment?

 

1. PnP Optional But Cool components should be BG2 Tweaks material and have no place being packaged with the Fixpack.

There shouldn't be any real pnp stuff. We're pretty anti-pnp unless it's absolutely clear that something BioWare did matches exactly pnp rules (and honestly, I can't think of any examples of this offhand).

 

2. The Beta Core Fixes component shouldn't exist. Fixes should be tested and certified before being released at all. This isn't a mod, it's a fixpack, and bugs are a different matter in the realm of fixpacks. Every fuck-up damages the Fixpack's reputation. The Deva/Fallen-Deva bug that I brought to your attention recently is a prime example (that wasn't even Beta, twas in the Core fixes).

It's difficult, though. How can we incorporate fixes and qualify them for release if nobody has a chance to test them first (sadly, it just isn't possible to test every single avenue beforehand -- the game offers so many possibilities that we'd never be able to release anything at all if the few of us that are left had to thoroughly troll through everything that might be affected by a single change). The only alternative was to provide a separate beta release before major updates, but nobody seemed to prefer that method, so the beta fixes exist.

[the bigg]

I don't feel that I have any obligation to the Fixpack community at all. I'll post my grievances if and when I choose. I'm not overly motivated to do so of late because a suggestion I recently made in good spirit was totally blown off without even a "That won't work because of X" or a "Yes, but you'll have to code it yourself because we're honestly busy".

What suggestion? I don't recall any recent feedback that was dismissed without any comment?

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=13904. Apparently being choosable as an OBC isn't enough to cool his rage (after all, he signs as aWL).

[Wounded_Lion]

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=13904. Apparently being choosable as an OBC isn't enough to cool his rage (after all, he signs as aWL).

 

What the fuck does my username have to do with this issue?

 

I don't recall saying I was angry, either. Disappointed, more like.

 

aWL

 

btw, devSin, I've got to leave in a couple minutes but I'll answer your questions a bit later.

[the bigg]

aWL ~= BWL, and some notorious BWL members too vocally object OBC components as if they were actually forced on you by the main component.

[Wounded_Lion]

aWL ~= BWL, and some notorious BWL members too vocally object OBC components as if they were actually forced on you by the main component.

 

Ah, a simple misunderstanding.

 

My username is a reference to a famous Conan story by Robert E. Howard. Rumors travel the coast of "a man who fights like a wounded lion". Howard is among the greatest fantasy authors ever to write. He's not perfect (one story has a tinge of racism, a few bits here and there are just strange, etc), but I'd definitely recommend his work.

 

Also, I'm not your enemy. Despite my mixed feelings about the Fixpack, I support both it and Baldurdash. Hell, I devoted a good chunk of my free time over the last 24 hrs to helping you track and squash a Fixpack bug.

 

aWL

 

EDIT: I should probably spell this out: aWL = a wounded lion

[Wounded_Lion]

What suggestion? I don't recall any recent feedback that was dismissed without any comment?

 

The Mixed-Use Daggers suggestion debacle irked me a bit. It's not too big a deal, tho, as I (obviously) don't hold it against you to the extent that I'd refuse to help fix bugs or support Fixpack installations.

 

There shouldn't be any real pnp stuff. We're pretty anti-pnp unless it's absolutely clear that something BioWare did matches exactly pnp rules (and honestly, I can't think of any examples of this offhand).

 

Mixed-Use Dagger Fixes

Giants Receive Penalties When Attacking Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes

Corrected Summoned Demon Behavior

 

are based on PnP. They're good components in their own right, but they belong in BG2 Tweaks.

 

After skimming the detailed docs on the website, I'm rather pleased to report that a few of the Core Fixes that I had issue with seem to have been deprecated or changed.

 

It's difficult, though. How can we incorporate fixes and qualify them for release if nobody has a chance to test them first (sadly, it just isn't possible to test every single avenue beforehand -- the game offers so many possibilities that we'd never be able to release anything at all if the few of us that are left had to thoroughly troll through everything that might be affected by a single change). The only alternative was to provide a separate beta release before major updates, but nobody seemed to prefer that method, so the beta fixes exist.

 

Points taken. Perhaps a group of devoted testers? Also, we don't need to test every possible scenario; rather, we need to make sure everything works as intended before release. CLUAConsole enables jumping to almost every situation we need in order to verify fixes. Anyway, I'll roll this around my brain a bit. My main point is that a fixpack needs to be stable. Extremely so, given its nature.

 

aWL

 

EDIT: additions, clarity, grammar

[devSin]

The Mixed-Use Daggers suggestion debacle irked me a bit. It's not too big a deal, tho, as I (obviously) don't hold it against you to the extent that I'd refuse to help fix bugs or support Fixpack installations.

That post is only a couple weeks old. As there's not a new version in the immediate future, it will take some time for suggestions and miscellaneous feedback to be addressed. You definitely weren't "blown off." These things can simmer for months and months before getting an "official" response.

 

Mixed-Use Dagger Fixes

Mixed-use dagger fixes shouldn't really be pnp; it's just that the default implementation makes no sense whatsoever. They don't do the damage of throwing daggers, they don't behave like throwing daggers -- it's a big mess, which is why having this OBC component doesn't really bug me (the items are already crap, regardless of what we do).

 

Giants Receive Penalties When Attacking Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes

This is just there for fun. The EFF files exist in the default game; it took like 5 seconds to hook them up, and it makes me smile. (It's not something we would have done if the files didn't already exist; I don't even know if they're actually the correct pnp bonuses.)

 

Corrected Summoned Demon Behavior

I can see how this one looks a bit out of place.

 

Points taken. Perhaps a group of devoted testers? Also, we don't need to test every possible scenario; rather, we need to make sure everything works as intended before release. CLUAConsole enables jumping to almost every situation we need in order to verify fixes. Anyway, I'll roll this around my brain a bit. My main point is that a fixpack needs to be stable. Extremely so, given its nature.

It's very hard to get volunteers. Nobody much cares to test, and it's rare to get reports even when problems are found. Add to this the many class- and quest-specific bits and that all and sundry mod is going to get dumped on top of us and it really does make comprehensive testing impossible.

 

I agree it's not the optimal solution, but it gets fixes into the players' hands the fastest, and I think we have a fair (albeit not as good as we'd like) record of not sucking too badly. We just have to take the hit when problems arise and try not to make the same mistakes in the future (at least, not as often!).

[SimDing0]

Corrected Summoned Demon Behavior

 

are based on PnP.

I don't agree. There's sufficient evidence to justify this ingame if you play through Watcher's Keep.

[Wounded_Lion]

I don't agree. There's sufficient evidence to justify this ingame if you play through Watcher's Keep.

 

It's a neat component, but I don't care for it. Even if we were to take Watcher's Keep as evidence (which is questionable), I'd ask:

 

Is a summoned demon/fiend likely to waste its limited time in the world combating another demon/fiend (even an enemy), or is it more likely to utilize its time in the world to slaughter everything else? From a roleplaying perspective, I think it'd be more interesting if both of the demons/fiends killed everything in sight that wasn't protected from evil, and then (surrounded by the bodies of the innocent and the unlucky) turned on each other.

 

Plus, it's just a bit impractical. When I summon two demons/fiends, and they turn on each other immediately, rather than doing something useful, my enjoyment factor drops to zero.

 

@devSin

 

Again, I see your points. Ultimately, however, I'd rather have fewer fixes but be 99% sure that those fixes are bug-free and work as intended. (No, that's not a cloaked insult; rather, it's an expression of personal preference.) Perhaps the focus of the Fixpack could be shifted to stability rather than additional fixes.

 

aWL

 

EDIT: grammar

[the bigg]

<...>summoned demon/fiend <...>

What part of "then don't install it and stop bitching" don't you understand? Fixpack could include Mang0's Hip Hop or ggiB's Square as an OBC for all I care, since you can simply [N]o install it.

 

Besides, demons would rather destroy devils (or vice versa) than help their summoners (as they still retain their wills, as opposed to normal summonings).

[devSin]

Again, I see your points. Ultimately, however, I'd rather have fewer fixes but be 99% sure that those fixes are bug-free and work as intended. (No, that's not a cloaked insult; rather, it's an expression of personal preference.) Perhaps the focus of the Fixpack could be shifted to stability rather than additional fixes.

I can understand that. And at this point, we don't really add a ton of new fixes -- a lot of the changes are refinements to the code and fixing things up to get to that 99% certainty.

 

There's room for improvement, and I do agree with your opinion on some levels, but we're bound by finite time and reasonable effort (is that 99% possible? sure, but we'd have to give up a lot to get there and it'd take a lot more time given that the fixpack only gets attention when somebody has the time available to do the necessary work). The more requirements you throw into any particular fix, the longer it's going to take to get that single fix (and honestly, the less likely it is that anybody is going to be willing to fix it any time soon).

[Wounded_Lion]

<...>summoned demon/fiend <...>

What part of "then don't install it and stop bitching" don't you understand? Fixpack could include Mang0's Hip Hop or ggiB's Square as an OBC for all I care, since you can simply [N]o install it.

 

Besides, demons would rather destroy devils (or vice versa) than help their summoners (as they still retain their wills, as opposed to normal summonings).

 

OBC components are optional, yes (hence the name). That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they belong in a fixpack.

 

In regards to the fiends, killing everything else first isn't so much about doing the will of the summoner as it is about making the best use of limited time in the world.

 

aWL

[temujin]

3. The Super Happy Fun Lucky Modder Pack should be provided seperately (not packaged with the Fixpack) in the Tools and Resources section of the G3 website.

I disagree. I remember this Super Modder pack fixed a couple of 'parse errors' during the install of some old mods, so yes, it is useful even for players. Even if a certain part of this component is bugged, the focus should be on fixing this bug instead of removing it from the fixpack completely and putting it somewhere else. Besides, it's an optional component - meaning you don't have to install it.