True Grandmastery&Multiclass Grandmastery

[Demivrgvs]

I'll add my two cents.

 

Barbarian is already a very solid class, allowing it to have grandmastery would make it just damn too good compared to fighters. Let's compare barbrians and fighters' advantages:

 

Barbarian:

1) can enrage (and in 2nd edition enraging gives tons of bonuses!)

2) have physical damage resistance (20% less damage is not something that can be ignored)

3) they have 12hp/level instead of 10

4) faster movements

 

Fighter:

1) can wear heavy armor

2) can attain grandmastery

 

It seems clear to me that grandmastery shouldn't be given to barbarians.

 

True Grandmastery: I think it's overpowered (an Archer with Tuigan bow would fire 4.5 arrows per rounds!), I would prefer it to add only half an attack per round.

 

According to the PHB (p. 60), paladins and rangers can't even go beyond one star, so I don't know if it makes allowances for them also.

Yeah, it would be quite unpopular, but I think even Specialization should be restricted to fighters (even the following D&D editions have kept weapons specialization restricted to fighters). But I would also propose an alternative...removing the half attack bonus from specialization and having instead a full attack bonus with grandmastery. This way you would also remove the annoying inconsistence of having non-fighters classes/kits not receiving the aforementioned half attack bonus for specializing.

[Salk]

Miloch,

 

the Barbarian has not (according to me) much to share with the Fighter kits in BG2. We can't even pretend that all P&P material can find space back in the game and still keep things balanced.

 

In BG2 the Barbarian is a category by itself in many ways. The Berseker kit is similar and in fact I never understood the reason of having both Berserker and Barbarian offer. The first has also a restriction to specialization, albeit for ranged weapons only.

 

I accept the restriction to specialization only for Barbarians because it seems to well counterbalance internally the warrior classes. If the Barbarians could reach Grand Mastery, noone would ever play a non dual Fighter.

 

Instead the restriction for worn magical items doesn't serve any internal purpouse. It's a generic restriction that doesn't make any sense and that penalize all classes in the same way.

 

So no, there is no contradiction in what I think (er... I think... ) or maybe there is and I just don't realize.

 

About the True Grandmastery: I don't think it's fair to analyze its benefits by adding the bonuses coming from the level of the fighter and sum the +1 to damage to each attack (in that case I could say that the bonus is truly zero because my character might miss all the hits). I still believe that the five star condition should represent the ultimate specialization and as such, like in P&P, should translate into a considerable bonus. BG2 doesn't follow this philosophy while other IE games do.

[Miloch]

So no, there is no contradiction in what I think (er... I think... ) or maybe there is and I just don't realize.

Heh. I'm gonna just let that one ride...

I still believe that the five star condition should represent the ultimate specialization and as such, like in P&P, should translate into a considerable bonus.

Maybe Demivrgvs's suggestion makes more sense then (the one about "removing the half attack bonus from specialization and having instead a full attack bonus with grandmastery"). He's probably right about archers too, which are already overpowered.

 

There's more penalties that could be applied to barbarians too, as per the Complete Barbarian's Handbook. Some of which are stupid (like they use only "crude" weapons like clubs and not swords - who could imagine Conan or Fafhrd without a sword?) but some of which might make sense (that "sophisticated" weapons like crossbows are beyond their ken). Also, there's still wiggle room between 2 stars for everything and 5 for everything. It's more than plausible they could get mastery or even high mastery in some categories, if not grand mastery. Bioware did a pretty poor job of "balancing" this kit, and kits in general I suppose.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

@aVENGER_(RR): Thanks for the info. Does it mention at all which classes/kits are eligible? According to the PHB (p. 60), paladins and rangers can't even go beyond one star, so I don't know if it makes allowances for them also.

 

Combat and Tactics limits Weapon Mastery (and higher) to single-classed Fighters:

 

Weapon masters are rare characters. Only single-classed fighters can ever achieve weapon mastery, and even then they do so with time, study, and sacrifice. To achieve mastery in a weapon, a character must first specialize in the use of that weapon. Then, at any time after he reaches 5th level, he can spend another proficiency slot to become a weapon master. He can continue to devote proficiency slots to the study of his chosen weapon, but can't progress faster than the rate at which he gains new weapon proficiency slots. So, a character who becomes a master at 5th level couldn't acquire his second slot of mastery until 6th level, his third until 9th level, and so on.

 

On the other hand, Paladins, Rangers and multi-classed Fighters can obtain Weapon Expertise, which is a lesser form of Weapon Specialization:

 

Expertise

 

Weapon expertise is a form of specialization that is available to nonfighters. Regular weapon specialization (described below) is only available to single-classed fighters, but weapon expertise can be learned by paladins, rangers, and multi-classed fighters. There's no reason a single-classed fighter couldn't learn expertise instead of specialization, but expertise is just as expensive as specialization and isn't as good. Weapon expertise allows a character to gain extra attacks as if he or she were a weapon specialist. At 1st level, an expert with the long sword gets to attack three times per two rounds. Weapon expertise also allows the use of any unusual weapon properties reserved for specialist use. Weapon expertise does not grant the character extra attack or damage bonuses, as weapon specialization does.

[Miloch]

Combat and Tactics limits Weapon Mastery (and higher) to single-classed Fighters

Hmm. It doesn't say anything about kits, does it, or the barbarian "subclass" which probably arose after C&T (and the supplement for which just directs you back to the PHB for proficiency rules ).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Also isn't it so that enemies with Grand Mastery will also take advantage of the P&P Grand Mastery?

 

Just noticed this, and the answer is - yes they do. In the unmodded game, many creatures (i.e. Skeleton Warriors, Fire Giants, Planetars...etc.) and a bunch of high level characters (i.e. Arkanis Gath, Gromnir, Yaga-Shura...etc) have Grandmastery in the weapons they wield and receive the same benefits that the player does. Therefore, they will profit from the True Grandmastery tweak as well.

 

 

Hmm. It doesn't say anything about kits, does it, or the barbarian "subclass" which probably arose after C&T (and the supplement for which just directs you back to the PHB for proficiency rules ).

 

This is the sole mention of kits in that entire supplement:

 

Kits and Barred Weapons

 

Some kits may allow characters to use barred weapons; for example, militant wizards may select a sword as one of their weapon proficiencies. Generally, the bonuses and perks of a kit are considered to negate any out-of-class penalties. However, priests may still be limited by their priesthood weapon restrictions.

[Demivrgvs]

Maybe Demivrgvs's suggestion makes more sense then (the one about "removing the half attack bonus from specialization and having instead a full attack bonus with grandmastery"). He's probably right about archers too, which are already overpowered.

OMG! We may agree on something!!

Also, there's still wiggle room between 2 stars for everything and 5 for everything. It's more than plausible they could get mastery or even high mastery in some categories, if not grand mastery. Bioware did a pretty poor job of "balancing" this kit, and kits in general I suppose.

Ok no, we can't. I do think this kit is one of the more balanced and interesting, and surely they put more efforts on this kit than on many others. Let's compare it with the Berserker.

 

Barbarians can enrage just like beserkers (and doesn't even get fatigued! ), have more hit points and suffer less damage when hit. As a bonus they also are immune to backstab and moves faster (which can come handy). The only disadvantages over berserkers are that barbarians can't wear heavy armor and can't get grandmastery. Barbarians are damn good tanks! I usually play Minsc as a barbarian (as most rasheemar are!) and I've grown to love this kit!

Just noticed this, and the answer is - yes they do. In the unmodded game, many creatures (i.e. Skeleton Warriors, Fire Giants, Planetars...etc.) and a bunch of high level characters (i.e. Arkanis Gath, Gromnir, Yaga-Shura...etc) have Grandmastery in the weapons they wield and receive the same benefits that the player does. Therefore, they will profit from the True Grandmastery tweak as well.

But I do think most creatures don't use proficiencies, though there are noteworthy exceptions.

[Miloch]

OMG! We may agree on something!!

Who said we can't? I already said you were right about multi cleric/rangers being more powerful than fighter/clerics if they can both get 2 stars.

surely they put more efforts on this kit than on many others.

And yes, we can also disagree . My point was they could've limited some weapons while perhaps giving benefits to others as per the 2e supplement (which, IMO, sucks pretty badly compared with the original 1e barbarian). And yeah, the berserker is pretty lame - I don't see why they felt compelled to have both in the game when they could've picked a more interesting and unique kit (and that goes for all the fighter kits).

But I do think most creatures don't use proficiencies, though there are noteworthy exceptions.

A lot use the BG1 style proficiencies, which are just as valid in the BG2 engine. No sense tacking on extra effects (except for two-handed style and the like) when you can just WRITE_BYTE a proficiency value without increasing file size.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

A lot use the BG1 style proficiencies, which are just as valid in the BG2 engine.

 

This is correct. In fact, the BG1 proficiencies are slightly better than their BG2 counterparts as they cover a larger scope of weapons (i.e. the Blunt proficiency covers clubs, staffs, hammers and maces).

[Miloch]

In fact, the BG1 proficiencies are slightly better than their BG2 counterparts as they cover a larger scope of weapons (i.e. the Blunt proficiency covers clubs, staffs, hammers and maces).

True, but you can hardly expect enemy NPCs to exploit that, unless someone gave them multiple weapons in the same group and scripting to switch between them (and if someone gave them that, they're probably cheating them in other ways already ).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

True, but you can hardly expect enemy NPCs to exploit that, unless someone gave them multiple weapons in the same group and scripting to switch between them (and if someone gave them that, they're probably cheating them in other ways already ).

 

Bioware did that with some Shadow Thieves who switch between short swords and throwing daggers and have a few stars in small sword proficiency. OTOH, I remove all instances of BG1 proficiencies in RR's "Shadow Thief Improvements" and replace them with proper BG2 varieties.

[Bursk]

So we've established that the enemy will also benefit from the True Grandmastery tweak (something I was already aware of, which is why none of my party will be reaching 5* in a weapon until at least level 12), but how about we come up with something that's a mixture of the BG1 and BG2 settings, which Miloch could perhaps then put into Mix Mod? Some sort of Rebalanced True Grandmastery?

[Icendoan]

This would be hell to code, but you could have up to proficiency in Groups, with anything further going into specific weapons.

 

Icen

[Miloch]

Bioware did that with some Shadow Thieves who switch between short swords and throwing daggers and have a few stars in small sword proficiency. OTOH, I remove all instances of BG1 proficiencies in RR's "Shadow Thief Improvements" and replace them with proper BG2 varieties.

I assume you did that for some other reason than giving them 1 star each in daggers and short swords, which would be the equivalent of 1 star in "small sword." As thieves, they can't have more than 1 star, can they?

 

I suppose we could do some sort of hybrid grand mastery tweak...

BG1				   BG2
Stars +Hit +Dmg APR   Stars +Hit +Dmg APR
1	 0	0	1	 1	 0	0	1
2	 1	2	3/2   2	 1	2	3/2
3	 3	3	3/2   3	 2	2	3/2
4	 3	4	3/2   4	 2	2	3/2
5	 3	5	2	 5	 2	3	3/2

What would you suggest?

[Demivrgvs]

Well, if you want suggestions...I already use a slightly modified True Grandmastery tweak, which I was going to propose in Kit Revisions.

 

	BG2						Revised
Stars +Hit +Dmg APR	 Stars +Hit +Dmg APR
1	 0	0	1		1	 0	 0	1
2	 1	2	3/2	  2	 1	 2	1
3	 2	2	3/2	  3	 2	 2	1
4	 2	2	3/2	  4	 2	 4	1
5	 2	3	3/2	  5	 2	 4	2

 

Alternatively, if you think it would still be considered nerfed (I don't) it may be improved a little. Half attack bonus can be attained at mastery (+++) and an additional +1 to thac0 at grandmastery. But I do prefer my former suggestion.