Alatos “Ravenscar� Thuibuld

[Salk]

What do you think a "vast number" is? (I mean, are we talking three, or thirty?)

I think it depends on the NPC's level. While three might be reasonable, 30 of a single potion is almost certainly out of the question. And while a higher level thief in BG2 might well have 3 or even 5 invisibility potions, a lower level one in BG1 is unlikely to possess such a stash. Certainly, any NPCs would use whatever they have in a life-or-death battle though, which is why I almost always install this component, as I think it does add realism. But as Cam says, there is no mod in the world that can't use a little improvement.

 

I am actually not even so sure that NPCs should systematically use whatever they have, because fighting against the party can't be always seen as the climax and pinnacle of their fighting experience. Sometimes enemies should understimate you, sometimes they should believe that it's not worth to deplete all their items during a single encounter. Human players think often that way (and we are back to realism). The potions, the scrolls, the wands... They are usually used when things are getting difficult and not at the beginning of the fight, unless we speak of metagaming of course or if there are other special conditions that hint to a fight being particularly engaging.

 

About "vast" number: I would find appropriate to have selected thieves carry and use a very limited number of potions (no more than 2-3), depending on their level (Enhanced Creatures worked that way and I personally worked on the NPCs equipment). Same things about some warriors with potions of giant strenght. But that should be the exception to the attack strategy and not the routine. At least, for the way I see it. Sometime it's nice to find unused potions as loot...

[DavidW]

What do you think a "vast number" is? (I mean, are we talking three, or thirty?)

I think it depends on the NPC's level. While three might be reasonable, 30 of a single potion is almost certainly out of the question. And while a higher level thief in BG2 might well have 3 or even 5 invisibility potions, a lower level one in BG1 is unlikely to possess such a stash.

 

OK, so to be concrete: in SCS 1, the potion rule is something like this:

 

- everyone above L4 has some chance of healing potions, rising to certainty at L9

 

- everyone above L6 has some chance of a magic-protection potion- 40 percent at L7 rising to certainty at L11

 

- fighter-types above L4 have some chance of a battle potion, rising to certainty at L9

 

(SCS thieves get handled ad hoc)

 

In SCS2, it's the same for healing, a bit different for others- from my notes:

 

////////// Protection

//////////

////////// We like: Clarity (potn21), Freedom (potn45),

////////// Magic Protection (potn34), and Magic Shielding (potn35)

//////////

////////// Until ToB, we do:

//////////

////////// L8-11: 25% chance of each of the first two, 15% chance of

////////// each of the second two, 20% chance of nothing

//////////

////////// L12-16: 25% chance of each

////////// L17+: 20% chance of the first two, 30% chance of the second two

////////// Drow, though, don't bother - they rely on their MR

////////// in fact, we do this just direct thru an MR check

//////////

////////// For ToB, basically we're the same from L16 up, before that

////////// we just don't bother

 

////////// Combat

//////////

////////// You have to be FIGHTER_ALL, PALADIN or RANGER_ALL to

////////// benefit from this.

//////////

////////// We like potions of heroism (potn09), power (potn41),

////////// oil of speed (potn14),

////////// and strength potions (potn03-potn07, in increasing order

////////// of potency, with potn12 between potn03 and potn04).

//////////

////////// Until ToB, L6-9 characters have a 15% chance each of

////////// heroism, 03, 12 and speed.

////////// L10-12 characters have a 25% chance each of heroism, 12,

////////// 04 and speed

///////// L13-15 characters have 25% each of power, 04, 05 and speed

//////////

////////// L16+ characters have 25% each of speed, 04, 05, 06

////////// In ToB, we start it at L10

 

////////// Invisibility

//////////

////////// thieves get invisibility potions - none at L1-3, 1 each L4-5, 2 each at L6-8,

////////// 3 from L9-L13, 5 otherwise

 

Tell me if you think that's compatible with your estimate.

 

 

@Salk:

I am actually not even so sure that NPCs should systematically use whatever they have, because fighting against the party can't be always seen as the climax and pinnacle of their fighting experience. Sometimes enemies should understimate you, sometimes they should believe that it's not worth to deplete all their items during a single encounter. Human players think often that way (and we are back to realism). The potions, the scrolls, the wands... They are usually used when things are getting difficult and not at the beginning of the fight, unless we speak of metagaming of course or if there are other special conditions that hint to a fight being particularly engaging.

I fairly strongly disagree with this, for two reasons.

 

Firstly, there's a major asymmetry between the players' situation and that of most of their opponents. The protagonist's party has a vast number of battles, the bulk of which are relatively straightforward, and they know they're going to have lots more battles. So in most situations they conserve their resources; in really big battles (e.g., end-of-chapter), though, they throw basically everything they have at the enemy (or at least, they should!)

 

Enemies aren't in this situation. Any battle with the players is a "really big battle" (obviously: after all, they usually get beaten by the players!) So every battle with the players is a pull-out-all-the-stops situation. And in most cases they know it's going to be like that: parties of well-equipped adventurers are very obviously incredibly dangerous, and anyone with any experience in the FR will know this. What's more, adventurers usually carry good loot, so you can reasonably assume that resources you use up are going to be replaced, in kind or in cash, if you win. So any sane enemy in BG or BG2 is going to throw everything they have at the player. Their lives are in deadly danger and the rewards are worth it. (Add to this that most enemies have homes, and could leave potions they don't want to use at home!)

 

Secondly (and, perhaps, less importantly), it's a basic design principle of SCS and SCS2 to try to avoid doing anything that's unrealistically stupid. If creatures don't use their potions as much as they can, they run the risk of not using them in situations where it's obvious they should have (e.g. because they're losing and the potion might have made a difference). Since it's virtually impossible to write code that tells an enemy whether or not it's losing the battle, it's virtually impossible to avoid this happening. The only solution

I can see is to just use the potions as effectively as possible, right from the start.

 

Sometime it's nice to find unused potions as loot...

Well, maybe, but that's not the enemies' problem

[Miloch]

OK, so to be concrete: in SCS 1, the potion rule is something like this:

 

- everyone above L4 has some chance of healing potions, rising to certainty at L9

- everyone above L6 has some chance of a magic-protection potion- 40 percent at L7 rising to certainty at L11

- fighter-types above L4 have some chance of a battle potion, rising to certainty at L9

That seems reasonable enough; the only thing I'd question would be this...

(SCS thieves get handled ad hoc)

...since I don't know what that means. If it means something like this...

////////// Invisibility

//////////

////////// thieves get invisibility potions - none at L1-3, 1 each L4-5, 2 each at L6-8,

////////// 3 from L9-L13, 5 otherwise

...then I guess I'm ok with that too. However, I still don't think they should lean solely on invisibility potions, but also their thieving skills. That may require some fudging to account for engine difficulties, but as long as that fudging looks halfway realistic, I'm ok with it.

[Salk]

I see your point, DavidW and you are right about it.

 

Still, like Miloch, I wish the AI would rather use the class skills rather than relying so much on the potions.

 

As I said, that would give the game more variations as well (a point that you didn't debate above).

[DavidW]

That seems reasonable enough; the only thing I'd question would be this...

(SCS thieves get handled ad hoc)

...since I don't know what that means. If it means something like this...

 

It means they get given potions on an individual basis, rather than by a general algorithm (basically because there are very few of them, also because my original version of SCS didn't really do backstabbing that effectively.) That makes it a pain to extract the actual potion numbers, but I'm pretty sure it's something like the SCS2 numbers.

 

then I guess I'm ok with that too. However, I still don't think they should lean solely on invisibility potions, but also their thieving skills. That may require some fudging to account for engine difficulties, but as long as that fudging looks halfway realistic, I'm ok with it.

In principle I agree, but in practice it's so much easier and more convenient for a thief to use a potion than to use H/S (even leaving aside scripting difficulties) that anyone in an existential fight to the death would run down their invisibility potions first. I agree it would be nice in principle to make them use h/s after that. The only concession I make to this at the moment is that thieves automatically hide when out of line-of-sight. Beyond that, I'd need to be convinced it can be done without them occasionally doing mad things (e.g., trying to run away from the party in a room where blatantly hiding isn't an option, or doing area transitions and then not coming back).

 

@Salk:

 

As I said, that would give the game more variations as well (a point that you didn't debate above).

Fair enough, I didn't. The short answer is that I don't want variety at the price of realism.

[Salk]

@Salk:

 

As I said, that would give the game more variations as well (a point that you didn't debate above).

Fair enough, I didn't. The short answer is that I don't want variety at the price of realism.

 

And I am all with you on that!

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

OK, for my current game I changed Alatos from lvl 15 to 19, gave him Str 17, Dex 18 and Con 16, Base AC 10, Thac0 11 and 2 stars in Daggers, Dart and Short Swords and 3 stars in Two Handed Weapon Styles.

As equipment I gave him Excellent Short Sword and Excellent Dagger (since I'm using Hard Times), some Darts of Wounding, Leather +1, a Cloak of Displacement and some potions.

It was a good fight and he almost killed both Ajantis and Minsc with his backstabbing and quintiple damage. Once he went invisible I tried to protect my more vulnerable party members.

I guess giving him potions was redundant, since the ScS scripts take care of that.

 

Question: if NPCs use their Two Weapon Style fighting does the text reflect the fact? When a player controlled character with two weapons attacks the text will say "left hand" and "right hand". Alatos did get two normal attacks in round so I guess it works, but is not reflected in the text?

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

OK, for my current game I changed Alatos from lvl 15 to 19, gave him Str 17, Dex 18 and Con 16, Base AC 10, Thac0 11 and 2 stars in Daggers, Dart and Short Swords and 3 stars in Two Handed Weapon Styles.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

That should be Two Weapons Style, of course.

 

Another thing, not really a ScS issue, but I really don't think a party of Good characters, including a Paladin, with a Heroic reputation should be invited into the Thieves' Guild.

[Miloch]

Question: if NPCs use their Two Weapon Style fighting does the text reflect the fact? When a player controlled character with two weapons attacks the text will say "left hand" and "right hand". Alatos did get two normal attacks in round so I guess it works, but is not reflected in the text?

I don't know - I would think the engine handles this automatically for NPC weapon styles though. Is he supposed to be a fighter/thief? If he's a plain thief, he normally wouldn't be able to get more than 1 star in weapons. I could see him using poison too.

Another thing, not really a ScS issue, but I really don't think a party of Good characters, including a Paladin, with a Heroic reputation should be invited into the Thieves' Guild.

Why not? They're supposed to be neutral.

[Guest PetrusOctavianus]

Question: if NPCs use their Two Weapon Style fighting does the text reflect the fact? When a player controlled character with two weapons attacks the text will say "left hand" and "right hand". Alatos did get two normal attacks in round so I guess it works, but is not reflected in the text?

I don't know - I would think the engine handles this automatically for NPC weapon styles though. Is he supposed to be a fighter/thief? If he's a plain thief, he normally wouldn't be able to get more than 1 star in weapons. I could see him using poison too.

Another thing, not really a ScS issue, but I really don't think a party of Good characters, including a Paladin, with a Heroic reputation should be invited into the Thieves' Guild.

Why not? They're supposed to be neutral.

 

Supposed to be, yes. But Alatos is evil, and his quest is definitly unlawful, so would he recruit a band of insufferable, self-rightheous do-gooders with a rep of 20? Either he should no offer the quest to such a party at all, or else offer it at a neutral location.

 

BTW, good catch on the two stars for Alatos. He's only a regular thief, so should have only 1 star, of course.

Unless someone else fixes him before my next game, I'll fix that and also give him some better weapons.

[Miloch]

Supposed to be, yes. But Alatos is evil, and his quest is definitly unlawful, so would he recruit a band of insufferable, self-rightheous do-gooders with a rep of 20? Either he should no offer the quest to such a party at all, or else offer it at a neutral location.

I don't think they're exactly scared of the authorities, and it's not like characters walk around wearing alignment and class badges, regardless of "reputation." So just like in real life, he has to determine whether the character is agreeable to his proposal via dialogue, and if not, he has no qualms about attacking with his lackeys. He wins either way (unless the party kills him) since would presumably collect the loot of anyone whom he has to wax. Sort of like the mafia trying to bribe cops, and if they prove incorruptable... rat-a-tat-a-tat.

[Salk]

IIRC the thieves guild does not offer the job if there is no thief in the party.

[Icendoan]

Yes they do. I did that with a solo LG Half-Orc F/C (I think, it was a while ago)

 

Icen

[Salk]

Well, then it might be a nice touch to let them contact you only if a thief is in the party...

[DavidW]

Well, then it might be a nice touch to let them contact you only if a thief is in the party...

 

It's the kind of thing that sounds cooler than it is. Its only effect is to close off a quest from some characters. Since you can always refuse a quest if you want to, and since some people will inevitably misunderstand what the component does and then whine when they can't talk to Alatos, I reckon it wouldn't be worth it.