PnP Free Action

[Salk]

The most genial of the half-orcs did it again!

 

He's released the Beta of this minimod here:

 

http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=35039

 

If SR/IR have not yet done it, I'd say this is a must!

 

Well done, Miloch!

[Demivrgvs]

The most genial of the half-orcs did it again!

 

He's released the Beta of this minimod here:

 

http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=35039

 

If SR/IR have not yet done it, I'd say this is a must!

 

Well done, Miloch!

Obviously I already did it. Both IR's Ring of Free Action doesn't prevent the use of Boot of Speed, and SR's Free Action doesn't prevent from being hasted.

 

But Miloch did it by patching!!

[Miloch]

Both IR's Ring of Free Action doesn't prevent the use of Boot of Speed, and SR's Free Action doesn't prevent from being hasted.

It does quite a bit more than that, if you look at the code or the release note. And yes, it's tested and compatible with SR (and just about everything else, and is going in MixMod).

[Demivrgvs]

Changes:

- Creatures cannot be hindered by Free Action spells or items; they can only be helped by them.

- Items and spells with movement bonuses will not be hindered by Free Action spells or items.

- Items and spells that grant movement bonuses display the Haste icon correctly (or Improved Haste if relevant).

- Items and spells with Free Action effects do not hinder movement bonuses and protect against all effects limiting movement.

- Items and spells that apply movement penalties display the Slow icon correctly.

- Items and spells changed so that Haste and Slow icons do not cancel each other. The game engine allows you to be slowed and hasted at the same time. If one state wears off first, you are left with the remaining state, and therefore, that icon should remain as long as it is in effect.

- Relevant item and spell descriptions updated accordingly (Boots of Speed, Ring of Free Action, Potion of Freedom, Remove Paralysis, Free Action, Slow, Haste and Improved Haste).

All this features are already implemented by SR and IR, except the "Items and spells changed so that Haste and Slow icons do not cancel each other" one. I should probably do it too. Anyway, being Miloch's work patching you can probably install it over SR/IR without problems (though I'm not sure how it handles descriptions changes).

[Miloch]

All this features are already implemented by SR and IR

I don't think so. Certainly not for all mod-added items and spells as well, which is (again) another benefit of installing a such a patching tweak. And your spells do not do all the same things - for one thing, your Free Action leaves a hardcoded reset of the target's movement rate to 100%, which I thought cancels out Haste etc. Also, you address only a subset of the same effects as the patch. I'm not trashing your mod or saying it's not good because of those things, but you're making claims that aren't absolutely true, so...

you can probably install it over SR/IR without problems

It's a patch, so yes. I add effects only if they're missing, remove some that are detrimental to the spell's effects, and leave any that are not related (such as whatever you're doing with unused proficiencies).

(though I'm not sure how it handles descriptions changes).

It uses a hybrid approach to avoid having 15 different descriptions in each TRA based on whichever mod has messed with the generic spells and items. If you've added accurate info that is also relevant to the PnP spell, I believe I retained that. It removes inaccurate information, such as Haste canceling Slow and vice versa, which the engine does not do, unfortunately. I don't, however, agree with all your description formatting changes (such as putting School on a new line). For one thing, I see nothing particularly wrong with the game's formatting and for another, it makes any mod-added spells stick out like sore thumbs (even worse than they might otherwise). I mentioned this to Salk in connection with the GTU a while back, and thought he agreed, though maybe he's changed his mind since then.

 

But anyway, who said one mod had to do everything possible related to spells, items, etc? Seems like a rather overreaching goal to me...

[Demivrgvs]

for one thing, your Free Action leaves a hardcoded reset of the target's movement rate to 100%, which I thought cancels out Haste etc. ... I'm not trashing your mod or saying it's not good because of those things, but you're making claims that aren't absolutely true, so...

Free Action effect doesn't cancel Haste. Free Action resets the base movement rate to its original 100% rate (e.g. vanilla's Boots of Speed increased movement rate to 200%, and Free Action reverted it to base 100%, but if you make the boots increase movement rate by 9 this value won't be affected by Free Action). That is why I left the original effect there, because I do know what it does. Thus before saying I'm making claims that aren't true you should try to not make untrue claims yourself! The hardcoded Free Action effect does not prevent Haste per se, the original spell did that via Protection from Effect/Spell (I don't remember which one, probably both).

 

For one thing, I see nothing particularly wrong with the game's formatting and for another, it makes any mod-added spells stick out like sore thumbs (even worse than they might otherwise). I mentioned this to Salk in connection with the GTU a while back, and thought he agreed, though maybe he's changed his mind since then.

Regarding the format you're right, I did that because it looked nicer than all those brackets imo, and because it also helped me to remember which spells were already done, and which ones were still left to do. It's probably better to revert the format to vanilla's one, will do.

I hate when I have to say "you're right"!

[Icendoan]

Heh, due to my hopelessness with modding, I have to say it all the time, though I have sworn to figure out my variable issues on my own

 

Icen

[Miloch]

Free Action resets the base movement rate to its original 100% rate (e.g. vanilla's Boots of Speed increased movement rate to 200%, and Free Action reverted it to base 100%, but if you make the boots increase movement rate by 9 this value won't be affected by Free Action). That is why I left the original effect there, because I do know what it does. Thus before saying I'm making claims that aren't true you should try to not make untrue claims yourself!

Heh. You responded quite quickly with "All this features are already implemented by SR and IR" without (I think) even looking at the code in PnP Free Action to see how things are implemented. Have you considered that leaving Free Action's setting movement rate to 100% might have a negative impact on creatures with attached movement modifiers, for example?

The hardcoded Free Action effect does not prevent Haste per se

No, it does nothing at all from what I've found. However, I wasn't talking about that effect, but rather, the movement modifier effects.

 

[And Salk, must you make these posts, since they only seem to lead to quibbling? ]

[Demivrgvs]

The hardcoded Free Action effect does not prevent Haste per se

No, it does nothing at all from what I've found. However, I wasn't talking about that effect, but rather, the movement modifier effects.

Well, how am I supposed to know that by saying "your Free Action leaves a hardcoded reset of the target's movement rate to 100%, which I thought cancels out Haste" you actually don't mean it cancels haste but movement rate?

Have you considered that leaving Free Action's setting movement rate to 100% might have a negative impact on creatures with attached movement modifiers, for example?

You're correct, if those values are added via %. But doesn't it contradict your claim that "it does nothing at all from what I've found"? Anyway, I'll do some tests when I have some spare time to see if it doesn't work as you say.

[And Salk, must you make these posts, since they only seem to lead to quibbling? ]

Even if sometimes I may find your nitpicking irritating I think it's constructive, and I also respect coders/modders much more expert than me. So, let's continue our fight!

[Salk]

You are guys of temperament and I like that!

 

From your iexchange of ideas there is growth (not for me but for the modding community) so I am happy I brought up the subject.

 

About the formatting of the spells: it's a sore point. You misremember, dear Miloch ( ): I never liked the original formatting for spells.

 

In fact here how "Friends" look in the BG1 GTU (I do believe it looks much better but I know I am biased):

 

Friends

(Enchantment/Charm)

 

Level: 1

Range: 0

Duration: 1D4 rounds + 1 round / level

Casting Time: 1

Area of Effect: The caster

Saving Throw: Special

 

A Friends spell causes the wizard to temporarily gain 6 points of Charisma. Those who view the caster tend to be very impressed with the spellcaster and make an effort to be his friends and help him, as appropriate to the situation. Officious bureaucrats might decide to become helpful; surly gate guards might wax informative; attackers might spare the caster's life, taking him captive instead.

 

It's practically how it looks like in the Player Handbook. We restored much P&P stuff, why not the description?

 

Unfortuantely for me, many text changes done with the GTU won't come over to BGT ( ) and that's why a while ago I even considered tackling the BG2 GTU...

[Demivrgvs]

I don't understand Salk, what are you proposing about spells' descriptions format?

 

The format changes Miloch refers to are the ones concerning Spell Schools. For example vanilla's Friends looks like this:

 

Friends (Enchantment/Charm)

Level: 1

...

 

While SR's Friends looks like this:

 

Friends

Level: 1

School: Enchantment

...

 

The difference is how SR identifies the spell's school. SR actually makes non-SR spells stick out among the others too much.

 

And just that you're here Salk, go to HLAs thread and help me out!

[Miloch]

But doesn't it contradict your claim that "it does nothing at all from what I've found"?

No. I was talking about two different effects (thought I made that clear with the "However, I wasn't talking about that effect, but rather, the movement modifier effects." comment ).

It's practically how it looks like in the Player Handbook. We restored much P&P stuff, why not the description?

As I said above, and with the GTU (and you agreed at the time anyway), it'll make mod-added content stand out like sore thumbs. Is an extra line feed really worth that? Demivrgvs's format is simply another version of that and frankly, I don't see the point.

[Salk]

I don't see the point for SR to come with another version either but I can't agree when you say (and I wonder how I could agree then since the GTU I sent you still has spell description formatted according to my vision) that changing the format is bad because mod-added content would stand out.

 

It should be the other way around. The GTU gives a standard and the Mods follow it. Mods can be updated and if they are not, it means they are no longer supported. I am not saying that the formatting I have suggested is the "one and only" but also I don't think we should feel prisoners of the already released mods. And yes, I definitely think that the extra line feed is worth that.

[Miloch]

I wonder how I could agree then since the GTU I sent you still has spell description formatted according to my vision

Because no one, not even you, has bothered to update the GTU after we came to that agreement (indeed, you haven't even responded to my recent Fixroom post titled Game Text Update as to whether it is the last edit...).

 

And to refresh your memory, here is that agreement. At least, it certainly seemed like agreement to me at the time and does even after rereading it.

My main qualm about this sort of thing is that if you're rearranging (rather than just making consistent) all the vanilla game descriptions, mod-added item descriptions are going to look out of place (even more so than some are already). So I would be in favour of retaining the status quo, unless changing the standard significantly fixes things.

I understand that what I have been doing was rearranging the vanilla game descriptions and I understand that mod-added items will look out of place. Feel free to reorder things the way you like best.

The GTU gives a standard and the Mods follow it. Mods can be updated and if they are not, it means they are no longer supported.

That's not even entirely true for Baldurdash, which was last updated in 2001 according to its webpage (2003 for BG2). The BG2 Fixpack uses the Baldurdash GTU, and most of the Fixpackers are against its superficial formatting changes. And it makes no sense at all to impose new guidelines in 2008 for a game that came out in 1998 (or 2000 for SoA). Especially when that format is superficial for the most part - you seem to want it either just because that's how it is in the PHB or for "aesthetic" reasons. I fail to see how a line break adds so much to the value of descriptions that you're willing to require reformatting of all the mod content that's come out in the last decade to conform to your eight-years-after-the-fact guidelines. Many of those modders are no longer even around. I spent weeks going through the DSotSC tra file to make it fit in with the game's formatting. I'm not going to spend even more time going back through it to make it not fit in .

[Salk]

Sorry about having not noticed your request, Miloch.

 

I immediately answered there.

 

And yes, I did say that you are free to do whatever you think it's best with the GTU, I didn't change at all my mind about it.

 

I am only saying that I still think that spell descriptions should be formatted like that, exactly for my own aestethical sense. It might be superficial but it does contribute to the beauty and the pleasure of playing the game.

 

I repeat, this is just personal and it's also moot in my case as well, since BGT uses the BG2 GTU descriptions, ruining all my work...