At the end of SoA and having trouble with mages

[Guest Periodiko]

I've beaten SoA once on the mac version years ago, but never finished BG1 or ToB because the former's mac port is unbelievably awful and non-tutuable and the latter was ported in something like 2004/5 and sold as if it was new.

 

I'm replaying through SoA to ToB with Swordcoast Stratagems 2 and some standard fixpack stuff. My character is a Wizard Slayer 9/Thief 23 right now, and he's just got into Suldassenar. I've got Keldorn with Carsomyr, Haer'daelis, Jaheira, and Aerie with me. Jan was chunked in the Underdark, and it seemed fitting to let him remain there.

 

My problem is I'm being destroyed by the high level mages.

 

First fight was outside the temple of Corellon: 3 maharajas and 2 rajas. If I breached a maharaja, it put up prot-from-magical immediately via contingency. If I breached him he did it AGAIN. So that's three breaches per maharaja, 2-3 per raja. I don't have that many breaches, even with Aerie and Haerry. On top of this they all lay down teleport fields which they are apparently immune to, meaning that any melee attack is borderline impossible without a prolonged retreat. I finally decided that there was no reasonable way for me to win this fight straight. I don't have enough breaches to even kill 2 or 3, assuming that the endless Abu-Dhalzim's and such didn't murder me utterly, which they do. Really, 5 high level mages are going to penetrate your defenses regardless of what you do. So I used a Protection from Magic scroll: amazingly, this actually took several tries as they could kill my guy in melee quite easily. I ended up using Haer Prot'd from Magic, had him lure them to a staircase, turned on defensive spin and held on for dear life, and eventually had my other guys jump the lone ones that pathfinding had forsook.

 

Then I fought the actual mage in the Temple. He has HLA's. The battle was made difficult for one main reason: no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't strip his spell buffs. I breached him early and he did the usual contingencies requiring more breaching, and then went invisible. I had Keldorn True Sight, but I still couldn't target him. The fight went on and on and on. I basically sat and stared and quaffed potions while he summoned the entire abyss: I killed one Dark Planetar, four fiends, one genie, another demon. Eventually our staring contest ended, his buffs ran out and I beat him to a pulp.

 

The thing that bothered me was that breach still seemed to be hit or miss: I don't pretend to be an expert on BG2, but is there some high level mage melee defense that can't be breached?

 

Now I'm fighting the dark elf outside one of the treehouses who passes a death sentence on you. I've only tried once, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, no amount of breaches brings this guy's defenses down, as my lawnmowers run up and get Weapon Ineffective after several, and breach itself never says it's bringing down defenses. What am I missing here? The fight ended rather dramatically when he Time Stopped and Abu-Dhalzim'ed twice in the middle of my party, literally killing everyone in one amazing AoE blast.

 

It's been a lot of fun, my favorite part are the improved calls for help and the way magic-using supernatural creatures fight, but these mage fights are turning into weird exercises in brutality with a lot of head-scratching. Even Jaheira's Creeping Doom has stopped shutting them down, for reasons I don't understand. It really is a great mod though.

 

[only other comment is that I think your revised shade lord is sort of ridiculous. isn't that a low level quest? how are you supposed to fight him at level 9 or 10? his abilities appear to be unlimited use and he constantly puts up defenses that need to be dispelled by a party that may not even be complete or have the necessary spell combinations. and doesn't he regenerate or something? i just remember getting stuck in these repeated endlessly protracted battles where we petered down to two or three level drained survivors fighting him while he repeatedly cast and recast blade barrier no matter how many times i dispelled it. needless to say i uninstalled that component for this run]

[DavidW]

Thanks for the comments.

 

I'll only reply partially as others may be better positioned to give practical advice, but on a few technical matters:

 

- Teleport Field only affects enemies, same as Confusion.

- your Breaches are possibly being stopped by either Spell Deflection/Spell Turning, or Spell Immunity: Abjuration. You need to bring these defences down; after that, Breach should work on any mage defence. (Assuming you've got the SCS modified breach installed).

- as the readme hopefully stresses, I don't make any promises on how doable the game is if you give HLAs to SoA creatures.

- I tentatively suspect that you need to be using more buffing magic yourself. Protection from Magic Energy is great against Horrid Wilting, for instance, and has a long duration.

- the shade lord may need fine-tuning. I originally found him too easy, but he's been upgraded a bit since then; I'll keep an eye on feedback on this one.

[Proteus_za]

I find that in SCS II, you have to rely much more an antimagic attacks (Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Khelbens Warding Whip, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Pierce Shield, Spellstrike) than in an unmodded game.

 

The reason your breaches arent working is because they are getting absorbed by spell defences. To drop those, you need one of the aforementioned anti magic spells. cast a few of those, then breach, then you can at least hit them.

 

I do wish there was a Khelbens Warding whip version of breach, one that dispelled protections multiple times. That would be a lifesaver!

 

As for Suneer having HLAs, as DavidW said, you dont need to install that component.

 

Yeah, I also found the shade lord impossible. Improved Battles has an improved shade lord which is beatable with a normal party.

[Galactygon]

Note that Ruby Ray of Reversal is alteration magic, so that would be your only chance against a combo SI: Abjuration and SI: Divination.

 

Now that I have had time look at the AI, I really only have 3 queries about the AI itself:

1.) AI does not open doors. I could enter a room, throw a cloudkill, turn invisible, go out, and close the door. Creatures that do not teleport (like Liches or Demons) cannot get out. You need to have a list of 50 or so doors in the game, and have checks if they are openable (ie do not require a specific key or the PCs have already opened the door)

2.) Often the AI has a Simulacrum or a Project Image in its chain contingency with an Improved Invisibility and SI: Divination. I really like this. But the Images do not fire off any Spell Triggers and such, leaving them defenseless so they are easy to take down.

3.) Unlimited Melf's Minute Meteors, which are created through a .bcs rather than a .spl. I think this is a bit of cheating. It would be nice if this were in an optional component, or if the wizards would actually have it memorized.

 

-Galactygon

[DavidW]

Note that Ruby Ray of Reversal is alteration magic, so that would be your only chance against a combo SI: Abjuration and SI: Divination.

Actually antimagic attacks penetrate SI:Abj, even if they're abjuration spells. (This is vanilla game behaviour, unchanged in SCS2)

 

Now that I have had time look at the AI, I really only have 3 queries about the AI itself:

1.) AI does not open doors. I could enter a room, throw a cloudkill, turn invisible, go out, and close the door. Creatures that do not teleport (like Liches or Demons) cannot get out. You need to have a list of 50 or so doors in the game, and have checks if they are openable (ie do not require a specific key or the PCs have already opened the door)

Life's too short. I deliberately don't bother blocking exploits like this. If you don't want to take advantage of them, don't.

 

2.) Often the AI has a Simulacrum or a Project Image in its chain contingency with an Improved Invisibility and SI: Divination. I really like this. But the Images do not fire off any Spell Triggers and such, leaving them defenseless so they are easy to take down.

Unfortunately images can't use spell triggers, else I'd have done this. (In fact originally I coded it, but then more tests showed that your clones' triggers aren't functional.)

 

3.) Unlimited Melf's Minute Meteors, which are created through a .bcs rather than a .spl. I think this is a bit of cheating. It would be nice if this were in an optional component, or if the wizards would actually have it memorized.

 

They're not unlimited: they're the right number for the level of the caster. They're created through a .bcs rather than a .spl because I want to create them two at a time instead of all at once; that, in turn, is because creatures with very high rates of fire tend to just get carried away and spend the whole time shooting instead of starting a spell again (engine bug).

[Galactygon]

Actually antimagic attacks penetrate SI:Abj, even if they're abjuration spells. (This is vanilla game behaviour, unchanged in SCS2)

 

Makes sense. It's the protections you are attacking rather than the creature.

 

Life's too short. I deliberately don't bother blocking exploits like this. If you don't want to take advantage of them, don't.

 

If someone is willing to go in and write down all the doors in a .2da file, it wouldn't be too much work. Luckily, most of the doors use DOOR01-30 as identifiers.

 

Unfortunately images can't use spell triggers, else I'd have done this. (In fact originally I coded it, but then more tests showed that your clones' triggers aren't functional.)

True. Then it wouldn't hurt to patch a remove spell (with SPWI420D, SPWI710D.spl, and SPWI809D.spl) on PROJIMAG.spl, and SIMULACR.spl so as not to decieve the player.

 

Unless this is exceptionally complicated, what the AI could do with images is retreat (or if the player has retreated) and cast its image spell there. Or have the image attempt a Mislead/Shadow Door and buff while invisible.

 

They're not unlimited: they're the right number for the level of the caster. They're created through a .bcs rather than a .spl because I want to create them two at a time instead of all at once; that, in turn, is because creatures with very high rates of fire tend to just get carried away and spend the whole time shooting instead of starting a spell again (engine bug).

 

Shame. There could be workarounds.

 

IF

SpellCast(Myself,WIZARD_MELF_METEOR)

HasItem("MELFMET",Myself)

Level(Myself,x) // This block would repeat for levels 5-20

THEN

RESPONSE #100

SetGlobalTimer("ihavemeteors","LOCALS",x*6) // where x is my level, and while this timer is active, I can create meteors via script

DestroyItem("MELFMET")

END

 

I still insist that I should be able to theoretically prevent meteors from being created if I am skilled enough to disrupt their spell.

 

-Galactygon

[DavidW]

Life's too short. I deliberately don't bother blocking exploits like this. If you don't want to take advantage of them, don't.

 

If someone is willing to go in and write down all the doors in a .2da file, it wouldn't be too much work. Luckily, most of the doors use DOOR01-30 as identifiers.

Sure, but my point stands: why bother? I'm just not especially interested in blocking deliberate exploits.

 

Unfortunately images can't use spell triggers, else I'd have done this. (In fact originally I coded it, but then more tests showed that your clones' triggers aren't functional.)

True. Then it wouldn't hurt to patch a remove spell (with SPWI420D, SPWI710D.spl, and SPWI809D.spl) on PROJIMAG.spl, and SIMULACR.spl so as not to decieve the player.

Good idea, though it's Fixpack territory more than SCSII territory, I think.

 

Unless this is exceptionally complicated, what the AI could do with images is retreat (or if the player has retreated) and cast its image spell there. Or have the image attempt a Mislead/Shadow Door and buff while invisible.

Retreating is a bit difficult script-wise. Mislead isn't a bad idea but it won't protect from Truesight, which is the biggest problem for Project Image.

 

 

I still insist that I should be able to theoretically prevent meteors from being created if I am skilled enough to disrupt their spell.

 

But the duration of Minute Meteors is about 24 hours. The wizards are deemed to have cast it the previous day, long before disrupting the spell is an option.

[Shaitan]

But the duration of Minute Meteors is about 24 hours. The wizards are deemed to have cast it the previous day, long before disrupting the spell is an option.

 

my 2 cents: I have to agree with David on this, it seems logical in a dangerous world

[Galactygon]

Sure, but my point stands: why bother? I'm just not especially interested in blocking deliberate exploits.

 

I beg to differ on this one. This more about realism than anything else. Suppose there is an ongoing battle in one room, and monsters stand idly in a neighboring room, with the door between them being closed (not sealed). If they have appendages, why shouldn't they open the door and help their allies?

 

I do not know about most players, but I usually close doors when retreating. Pursuing creatures should open doors. The vampires in the Saradush prison do it. The example I mentioned previously had to do with an exploit. This is not all about exploits, although SCSII addresses many of them.

 

But the duration of Minute Meteors is about 24 hours. The wizards are deemed to have cast it the previous day, long before disrupting the spell is an option.

 

Ah okay, valid point.

 

-Galactygon

[aVENGER_(RR)]

If someone is willing to go in and write down all the doors in a .2da file, it wouldn't be too much work. Luckily, most of the doors use DOOR01-30 as identifiers.

 

Actually, that's not necessary since ToB introduced a NearestDoor object. By using that, you can make enemies open any unlocked door:

 

IF
See(NearestDoor)
OpenState(NearestDoor,FALSE)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
	MoveToObjectNoInterrupt(NearestDoor)
	OpenDoor(NearestDoor)
END

[Galactygon]

Actually, that's not necessary since ToB introduced a NearestDoor object. By using that, you can make enemies open any unlocked door:

 

I have heard from various rumours that NearestDoor is hopelessly screwed.

 

-Galactygon

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I have heard from various rumours that NearestDoor is hopelessly screwed.

 

The script snippet which I posted works fine for me, i.e. the opponent walks to the nearest closed door and opens it properly.

[Galactygon]

Then we ought to give igi an update. I will try and test this myself.

 

-Galactygon

[Guest Periodiko]

Well I've since muscled my way from BG2 into ToB. Honestly, the mages were still problematic, but since my mage is Aerie and I have limited access to anti-magic stuff, I mostly focused on endurance and delaying strategies like summons' and the like, as well as making more use of Keldorn's dispel despite the way it knocks down your own buffs.

 

I got past the spellcasting Drow through what seemed like sheer chance, with him deciding to charge headlong at me instead of cast timestop and nuke me giving me enough time to drop his defenses and beat him to a pulp.

 

Irenicus was an unbelievable headache, and I basically abused the AI to have even a tiny chance. I used the strategy of running like hell and a few summons to wear down his initial volleys and let the duration on his Spell Immunities run out (or something like that). The battle went pretty long, I managed to circumnavigate the roots and eventually he started taking damage after several minutes and my party killed him.

 

Hell-Irenicus was in some ways even worse. I used summons to distract Irenicus and ran, then as the demons teleported after me I slowly and dangerously killed them one by one. They could practically kill my PC's one-on-one, so it was rather nerve-wracking, especially since Irenicus had a ridiculous habit of walking in from off-screen, casting timestop, walking up to my main character and punching him repeatedly until he died. I was a little disgusted with that, even though it's expected behavior, since Irenicus' thac0 seems pretty insane as the slayer, his damage is also very high, and punching you to death while timestopped is probably the peak of really lame ways to die. The successful end-battle ended up being him running out of spells and chasing Boots of Speed Aerie around mindlessly while the rest of my party healed, and then we hacked him to bits at great cost.

 

Gromnir was a hit and run. We killed him, then immediately ran downstairs and fled the building, returning for his stuff after resting. It was kind of funny actually.

 

Yaga-Shura was the most fun I've had in ToB, mainly because there were only a handful of mages. I'm using the Improved Lairs, and it was nice to just fight normal monsters so Keldorn, Sarevok, and my Wizard Slayer/Thief got to shine.

 

I visited Abazigail's Lair next. I thought the beholders in Abaz's Lair were a bit much, but that's because I have no idea how I'm supposed to fight these things, let alone versions that are highly resistant to damage. Lots of unpleasant Dispel Magic followed by Death Ray deaths. I ended up using spike traps to kill most of the golems and a time trap to give my character time to run up and melee to death the Death Tyrants. It was here I actually realized that I was using the improved lairs at all.

 

A few things:

 

* Suneer's HLA's only surprised me since I have it set to give it to appropriately divine or superpowered mages, unless I'm totally misremembering it. That seems consistent since Irenicus and the other bosses are the only mages I remember dropping HLA's on me. I just didn't really consider Suneer divine or special - he seems like just a high level arcane assistant.

 

* The encounter that spawns mid-way through Ab's lair consisting of several dragons and sits at the doorstep is breaking for me. I never returned to town mid-way through the game, and when I leave my characters go into cutscene mode, then they attack the two dragons near the entrance, then they kill them, then they stand in formation nearby and then the game never updates.

 

* The guard-dragon's dialog seemed perfectly fitting and I thought he was part of the core game until I read up on the Improved Lair changes.

 

How do you dispel invisibility on mages that have cast SI: Divination and Improved Invisibility? I think my Thief's Detect Illusions 100% has now thankfully removed that headache, but until then I couldn't really seem to get it.

 

Cheers.

[DavidW]

Well I've since muscled my way from BG2 into ToB. Honestly, the mages were still problematic, but since my mage is Aerie and I have limited access to anti-magic stuff, I mostly focused on endurance and delaying strategies like summons' and the like, as well as making more use of Keldorn's dispel despite the way it knocks down your own buffs.

I can see this would make things hard work.

 

especially since Irenicus had a ridiculous habit of walking in from off-screen, casting timestop, walking up to my main character and punching him repeatedly until he died. I was a little disgusted with that, even though it's expected behavior, since Irenicus' thac0 seems pretty insane as the slayer, his damage is also very high, and punching you to death while timestopped is probably the peak of really lame ways to die.

 

All I can say is that he doesn't deliberately target the main character, just the nearest PC. But ultimately, if you're going to use Time Traps and the like, why shouldn't the bad guys?

 

Suneer's HLA's only surprised me since I have it set to give it to appropriately divine or superpowered mages, unless I'm totally misremembering it. That seems consistent since Irenicus and the other bosses are the only mages I remember dropping HLA's on me. I just didn't really consider Suneer divine or special - he seems like just a high level arcane assistant.

I'd be interested what others think about this one - obviously there's a certain amount of judgement call going on here. I guess I do consider Suneer a boss, though.

 

The encounter that spawns mid-way through Ab's lair consisting of several dragons and sits at the doorstep is breaking for me. I never returned to town mid-way through the game, and when I leave my characters go into cutscene mode, then they attack the two dragons near the entrance, then they kill them, then they stand in formation nearby and then the game never updates.

Okay, that shouldn't be able to happen. Which version of SCS are you playing? You should be forced to return to town midway through, but a bug in v7 allowed you to avoid it. v8 fixes it (I hope!)

 

 

* The guard-dragon's dialog seemed perfectly fitting and I thought he was part of the core game until I read up on the Improved Lair changes.

Cool, that's nice to hear.

 

How do you dispel invisibility on mages that have cast SI: Divination and Improved Invisibility? I think my Thief's Detect Illusions 100% has now thankfully removed that headache, but until then I couldn't really seem to get it.

 

Glitterdust if they haven't got Globe of Invulnerability. Otherwise, use antimagic to bring down the SI: Divination.