IR V2 release

[Jarno Mikkola]

Kundane The weapon is already quite powerful imo, but a small addition, possibly tailored for a rogue type of adventurer, may be welcome if you have any suggestion.

Well, as the text says:

Kundane +2: Sword of Quickness

Disfigured as a child, Dramnek Olk was ostracized and ridiculed by his peers... he made his way to the streets of Athkatla. There he became a cutpurse, augmenting his thieving skills with the little magic he'd learned from Galloma. Eventually he crafted this sword, which enhanced Dramnek's weak physical body. This weapon has no speed factor.

+1 to Strength or Endurance... or few hit points.

Or some thieving skill +'s.

Or some smaller kind of variation of this.

[Icendoan]

Quickness... Movement bonus?

 

Icen

[Guest Guest]

I'd like to see something exotic, but if it's a thief-only bonus, it should make sense as to why it's for thieves (on this note, what's the rationale behind rangers getting the full apr with Belm but others not?). What saving throw bonus would a thief most benefit from? I guess I quite like that idea.

[J Beau]

Belm, considering you get it on the way to the druid stronghold, should favor druids. That seems to be the intent of its placement. You even get another scimitar at the completion of the druid grove quest.

[Ardanis]

I'm thinking about the line 'scimitars->Drizzt->rangers' as a reason for that.

[Demivrgvs]

Belm & Kundane

I'd like to see something exotic, but if it's a thief-only bonus, it should make sense as to why it's for thieves (on this note, what's the rationale behind rangers getting the full apr with Belm but others not?). What saving throw bonus would a thief most benefit from? I guess I quite like that idea.

I'm thinking about the line 'scimitars->Drizzt->rangers' as a reason for that.

I'm not a Drizzt's fanboy please. The reasons behind rangers getting full +1apr are:

- in PnP two weapon fighting is notoriously a ranger's feature and Belm is considered one of the best off-hand weapon in the game

- in the background I've depicted its most famous wielder as a Tempest, a ranger's kit/prestige class specialized in two weapon style

- in 3rd edition two weapon fighting can be improved to allow further attacks per round, and ranger class gain this feature automatically (unless one chose to "specialize" in archery)

- ranger class currently is underused and slightly underpowered compared to fighters (unless you're talking about Archer kit, but then Belm shouldn't benefit them too much)

 

That being said, I don't want to favor one class or another, but I think it would be cool having different weapons to chose from depending on characters' classes instead of always chosing the same ones. It's not always needed to restrict the item to do that (e.g. Crimson Chain is usable by anyone, but only characters with the rage ability will fully benefit from it), but sometimes I need to do it, be it for conceptual reasons or balancing ones.

 

Kundane's additional ability, if any, doesn't have to be restricted to thieves at all cost, but it may be something that generally is more useful for a thief than another character

 

Belt of Inertial Barrier

Haven't tested it yet, but I think I do, without scripting and ids.

The belt would cast every round the cloudimm.spl upon the wearer, and a cloud, aside from it's natural effects, would also apply the immunity to cloudimm, but with the 2 round delay.

Wow...it's even more complicated than that because of how the clouds spells work. It may be possible to do that, but wouldn't this be too much for just one item feature? I mean, I have no problems to try it out, but I'm never sure of much having all those spells casted each round can affect "slow" PCs. IR already uses a lot of special abilities that work in this way (though generally less complicated), and I'd like to avoid making the mod too "heavy" for the engine, SCS already squeeze it quite much.

[Ardanis]

As I said, haven't tested it, but clouds' hit-per-round system is based on their projectiles, not spls themselves. So, i think it should not be more complicated.

And slow PCs, yes, I just suggested an implementation, nothing more

 

Alternatively, the Belt may have a once-per-day special ability of said immunity.

[J Beau]

Belm, considering you get it on the way to the druid stronghold, should favor druids. That seems to be the intent of its placement. You even get another scimitar at the completion of the druid grove quest.

Considering my arguments were not addressed, I thought I'd try again. And if there was ever an underused class, it has to be the Druid. And where do you get the dual wielding association. Maybe some people like to use it that way but so what. I always gave it to Jaheira as a primary weapon until something better came along. That's just playing style.

[Guest Guest]

Regarding Belm & Kundane, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if having a weapon that allows 1 extra apr is a good thing for any class.

 

For example, will Kundane be such a good off-hand weapon for a thief that there's no point in him using anything other than Kundane and the SSoB? Will Kundane ever become redundant? What about if I don't use the dual-wielding tweak component provided by IR?

 

The same goes for Belm and rangers. Will Valygar forever have Belm in his off-hand, because 1 extra apr trumps anything other weapons can provide? Is it impossible to beat?

 

Maybe Belm and Kundane should only provide an extra half apr for all classes, unless you could somehow restrict this half apr to dual-wielders, and give the full apr to everyone else.

[Guest Guest]

Oh, and with the SSoB being so good, why would a thief use anything else?

[J Beau]

These are not the greatest items in the word. There are much better items. Against creatures that need +3 to hit, they are useless, except SSoB.

[Raj]

Kundane ever become redundant? Will Valygar forever have Belm in his off-hand, because 1 extra apr trumps anything other weapons can provide? Is it impossible to beat?

 

These two weapons are good during the early stage of the game, decent late in soa, and a weak choice for the whole tob. The extra attack is granted to the main weapon so it's like wielding two copies of the same weapon, with one more attack made with a +2 weapon with no special abilities, and that, most of the time in the late chapters, is useless. Beside the low level of enhancement that is not going to pierce enemy dr, there is the lack of immunities that cripples Belm/Kundane users: they already lose one slot ( shield ), are trading defence for offense and gain no special ability doing so: having something like crom fayer or anguvardal with a heavy bonus strength in the offhand is going to enhance your main weapon like one more apr on some characters, while some MR or immunity to confusion/fear/chaos/level drain/elements/whatever is a wiser choice expecially if you play with mods that make mage battles harder.

With the Whirlwind HLA or the many items granting Improved Haste ( and mages having more slots to devote to Improved Haste in the late game ) the only good thing about dualwielders compared to 2handers or shield users is the opportunity of combining the abilities of the end game weapons, some of them already powerful enough to justify the use in the unmodded game while now with IR most of the Cespenar recipes grant interesting properties for the off hand.

[Guest Guest]

So you get 2 attacks with your main-hand weapon (let's say it's the FoA) and 1 with Belm/Kundane. How is that worse than e.g. 1 attack with the main-handweapon (the FoA) and 1 attack with, say, Celestial Fury in the off-hand?

 

Ignoring the IR dual-wielding tweak for the moment, which choice would be better for Valygar:

 

1. FoA and Belm (3 attacks total)

2. FoA and Celestial Fury (2 attacks total)

 

I'm not saying that what you've told me is wrong, rather that I don't really understand why you're right.

 

And again going back to the SSoB, is this not the ONLY weapon of choice for thieves? I mean, you get it comparatively easily. As I just posted in another thread:

 

My main concern with the SSoB is that if it effectively gives +5 to THAC0 for thieves, any thief without the Short Sword proficiency will miss out. And considering Level One NPCs allows us to give whatever profs we want to each character, why would you NOT assign each thief the Short Sword proficiency? But every single thief having the same proficiencies is lame.

[Raj]

This is a munchkin question that doesn't consider the availability of a weapon.

 

I could argue with you asking what is better for Valygar, using his family blade and the +0 dagger found in his cabin, or upgraded Spectral Brand and Axe of Unyelding at the end of tob?

 

The FoA and Belm are availabe very early in chapter 2 in two easy quests ( even with some mods, these are always easier than Firkraag or Unseeing Eye quests for example, so usually most players do it before collecting the fee for Bodhi/Galean ), while expecially with SCS2 that is recommended with IR, the Celestial Fury is harder to claim, expecially if you reload much or pre-buff/use metagaming ( I tend to leave the guarded compound for after the Underdark, because it fits the Twisted Rune broken quest and that's one of the things I do in chapter 6 ).

 

So, before analyze the damage output, I can safely say that FoA+Belm is the nicer combination for a early game.

 

 

Generally speaking in soa you don't need much better than a +2 weapon to hit almost everything in the game, and enemies don't have much hp or phisical resistances so Belm is going to hurt nonetheless. Against something like a pit fiend or a adamantite golem for example, out of 3 attacks in a FoA+Belm combination you are going to get one message of weapon ineffective so the FoA+Celestial Fury has the same # of attacks, and then it's a matter of preference if you like to have 2 attacks with FoA or 1 with FoA and 1 with CF.

Against Pit Fiends without elemental immunity to electric I'd go CF, against a adamantite golem I'd keep FoA+Belm hoping to score a slow effect.

 

 

Celestial Fury is a BAD off-hand weapon btw: its special effects trigger on a % basis so the more attacks you land, the more chances you have to deal bonus damage/stun, while using it off-hand you are always going to attack once a round. If you like CF, use it on your main hand.

 

Answering your question, given all three weapons availabe in your inventory, CF+Belm is more suited for Valygar for 90% of soa if you ask me, because being a stalker he can backstab with it.

 

Against anything that needs a +3 weapon to be hit, or against mages/demons/dragons/other nasty things ( mostly found in tob and enhanced by SCS and other tactical mods ) that have special attacks I'd give up the extra attack from the weak Belm and take a heavier enchanted weapon; CF is good if nothign else is availabe, but the immunities of the Equalizer, Blackrazor or even a un-upgraded Hindo's Doom ( magic resistance ) are better, from a powerplayer point of view that is.

 

 

 

SSOB: it's good for pure damage, but what if you want to backstab a enemy mage ( poor ac so thac0 is not a issue, prebuffed with stoneskin so no backstab on the first hit if a mage doesn't breach him, but if the enemy sees your mage coming then a contingency with spellturning/mislead/true sight/pfmw or something similar will trigger ).

There're very nice daggers availabe early in the game ( pixie's dust, neb's nasty cutter, stiletto of demarchess ) that are very good initiator for a battle, or a weapon with elemental damage/poison if you want to distrupt enemy spellcasting.

The short sword of Mask can make you invisible again so that's two backstabs instead of one at the start, or a chance to backstab in the middle of a battle.

Ilbratha or Arbane are cheap and better alternatives for swashbucklers or after the battle started, expecially if there're casters throwing disabling spells at you.

Many enemies see invisible or are immune to backstab so you can forget the backstab multiplier, and later in the game your thac0 is high enough to not need anymore the +2 bonus so bad.

So while SSOB is a nice weapon indeed, I can think of many situations I'd pick something else over it.

 

 

And considering Level One NPCs allows us to give whatever profs we want to each character, why would you NOT assign each thief the Short Sword proficiency?

 

Lvl1NPCs allows us to make Minsc a wizard, and Shadowkeeper allows us to give everybody two SSOB; it's a single player game, play to have fun.

[Guest Guest]

Raj, that is exactly the type of detailed response I was hoping for.

 

Perhaps it wasn't clear from what I'd written earlier, but the whole "munchkin" situation is precisely what I was hoping to avoid when I play. My knowledge of the game is certainly very limited, which is why I rely on people such as yourself to let me know I have nothing to worry about.

 

Even if CF is available much later than Belm, I was concerned that Belm would still always be a better choice because of the extra apr (I suppose I must've overestimated the value of an extra apr). Same goes for Kundane and its extra apr.

 

My Level One NPCs comment I suppose could just as easily translate into "I've found this (effectively) +5 THAC0 sword, so the next prof point my thief gets is going into short sword!". I just didn't want the SSoB to always be the best weapon for my thieves.

 

Anyway, thanks again for clearing things up for me.