Six's suggestions

[Demivrgvs]

The other name for Enchantment is Charm, and all the other charms are listed as Enchantment/Charm, so I vote for Mass Charm being one too for reasons of consistency.

Mass Charm doesn't exist in BG, and I'm not planning to add Wiazard spells at the moment.

[SixOfSpades]

Actually in AD&D PnP they have 10% magic resistance (or SR 13 in 3rd edition), and considering it already has a vast array of resistances I wouldn't give it more than that amount of MR. A 4th level spell shouldn't allow a mage to "screw a lich" imo.

Well actually, everything would depend on whether or not the lich in question had Imprisonment mororized, and/or had an AI that allowed him to detect enemies with high Magic Resistance, and Lower it accordingly. I don't find the resistances that appealing, really: I suppose the Charm/Confusion/Hold would be important for solo players, but a party Mage should be well out of that anyway. Besides, you're competing with Stoneskin, Greater Malison, and Emotion here. Just my 2 cents.

 

I put gameplay balance, PnP consistency, and entertainment value, before "vanilla consistency" when it comes to revise something. As I said, I'd prefer vanilla's creatures to be more in line with their PnP version, but I don't like to force players to have a less interesting polymorph ability only because a vanilla's creature doesn't have the abilities it's supposed to have.

Hm--personally, I would put PnP consistency last: Balance and entertainment are tied for most important, and "vanilla game" consistency slightly higher than PnP. If the PnP version is more interesting, more power to it, I'm just saying that the MR is pretty much the only reason people ever used the Mustard Jelly--and maybe even the only reason they used Polymorph Self at all.

 

You mean that instead of setting AC and THAC0 the form grants a bonus to the caster's ones? I would be against it.

Yeah, I debated the issue, but decided that since the Sword Spider is one of the forms available all the way to the end of the game, and does nothing but melee, its combat stats needed to stay a cut above those of the Druid using them--as opposed to being abandoned in Chapter 2 with the Black Bear, Brown Bear, and Wolf forms.

[Demivrgvs]

Polymorph Self

Well actually, everything would depend on whether or not the lich in question had Imprisonment mororized, and/or had an AI that allowed him to detect enemies with high Magic Resistance, and Lower it accordingly. I don't find the resistances that appealing, really: I suppose the Charm/Confusion/Hold would be important for solo players, but a party Mage should be well out of that anyway. Besides, you're competing with Stoneskin, Greater Malison, and Emotion here. Just my 2 cents. ... I'm just saying that the MR is pretty much the only reason people ever used the Mustard Jelly--and maybe even the only reason they used Polymorph Self at all.

Yeah, exploiting its 100% magic resistance was the only reason people ever used the Mustard Jelly, but that surely isn't a good reason to keep it imo, and I don't think liches should need an Imprisonment spell only to deal with a Mustard Jelly!

 

Regarding the Sword Spider...perhaps using the Phase Spider would be more interesting?

 

Hm--personally, I would put PnP consistency last: Balance and entertainment are tied for most important, and "vanilla game" consistency slightly higher than PnP.

I hadn't put the first three in any particular order but if I had to I would put:

1° Balance: it doesn't matter how fun a thing is, if it ruins the gameplay because it's too damn overpowered it has to be removed, replaced or nerfed.

2° Entertainment: as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay balance, entertainment is the most important factor, and raising it is the most satisfying accomplishment.

3° PnP consistency: with it I doesn't mean we have to stick to the rules...but if it is a general consensus that in a D&D world a creature has a particular ability, than it's generally better for it to have that ability, especially if by adding it the entertainment factor is improved without ruining the balance.

4° Vanilla Consistency: not even developers bothered to maintain it, we have so many creatures with so many inconsistencies that I'm not even sure I could be able to decide which one is the one I have to be consistent with!

 

You mean that instead of setting AC and THAC0 the form grants a bonus to the caster's ones? I would be against it.

Yeah, I debated the issue, but decided that since the Sword Spider is one of the forms available all the way to the end of the game, and does nothing but melee, its combat stats needed to stay a cut above those of the Druid using them--as opposed to being abandoned in Chapter 2 with the Black Bear, Brown Bear, and Wolf forms.

You have a point...but I still don't like this solution.

[Salk]

I would add also Internal Consistency which I value more than P&P and Vanilla Consistency.

 

I like the same rules to be applied fairly all throughout the game. What is valid for the PC should also be valid for the NPC, unless this goes against the main priority that Demivrgvs mentioned (Balance).

[Mike1072]

A 4th level spell shouldn't allow a mage to "screw a lich" imo.

Profanity of the week: go screw a lich.

[SixOfSpades]

Yeah, exploiting its 100% magic resistance was the only reason people ever used the Mustard Jelly, but that surely isn't a good reason to keep it imo, and I don't think liches should need an Imprisonment spell only to deal with a Mustard Jelly!

True--but using Imprisonment to deal with a party member is a much more palatable idea. They had other ways too, like Gate and Melf's Minute Meteors . . . but yeah, the MR was the only reason I ever touched Polymorph Self at all, and that was only because it's pretty much the only way to fight Beholders without the Shield or the Cloak, which are even cheesier. It's the closest thing to a fair fight that I could give them.

 

Regarding the current Mustard Jelly form, the only time I'd see players using it is to kill Trolls when they don't have a Fire/Acid weapon handy, except that of course there's the Flind. The fact that the MJ's attack is ranged might count for something, but the 1 ApR does diminish the appeal.

 

Regarding the Sword Spider...perhaps using the Phase Spider would be more interesting?

Given that it has Poison and Dimension Door where the Sword Spider just has Haste, yeah, it'd be more interesting. Its stats are decent: 12 THAC0, 5 AC, 2 ApR, and Save vs. Death with +2 penalty or take 2hp/second for 20 seconds. Its attack strikes as +1, and the only change I've given my Hivemaster is to bump that up to +2.

[lac]

could you use it to dimension door to places that are not normally accessible on the map?

If so, would that be a problem, or could it be fit under 'Don't Do That' ?

[SixOfSpades]

could you use it to dimension door to places that are not normally accessible on the map? If so, would that be a problem, or could it be fit under 'Don't Do That' ?

Yeah, Dimension Door has always been somewhat prickly in this regard, but happily the vast majority of 'inaccessible' areas have little to no impact on actual gameplay. (Congratulations, you made it to that one chest outside of Spellhold. Here's a Silver Necklace for you. Or perhaps you'd like to DD to the roof of the Harper Hold when you're not allowed inside? Good luck getting in without the rest of the party.) Besides, if the players are installing mods it's a safe bet that they've been warned about the possible perils of abusing DD.

 

 

On a completely different note, Demivrgvs, I've finally pinned down how I want to rebalance the Insect spells. They all have a duration of 6 rounds, and are blocked by Magic Resistance.

Summon Insects: Casting time 5, 2hp Piercing damage/round, 33% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath with -1 bonus for half damage and half Spell Failure. +1 penalties to THAC0 and AC. In the first round victim must Save vs. Spell with a -1 bonus or undergo Fear for 1 round.

Insect Plague: Casting time 7, 2hp Piercing damage every 4 seconds, 50% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath for half damage and half Spell Failure. +2 penalty to THAC0 and +1 to AC. Each round, victims must Save vs. Spell or undergo Fear for 1 round.

Creeping Doom: Casting time 9, 2hp Piercing damage per second, 66% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath with +2 penalty for half damage and half Spell Failure. +2 penalties to THAC0 and AC. Each round, victims must Save vs. Spell with +1 penalty or undergo Fear for 1 round, and also Save vs. Death with +1 penalty or take 1hp of Poison damage every 3 seconds for the next 2 rounds.

 

Thoughts? Anyone?

[Ardanis]

Personally, I find Magic Resistance to be really overpowered, especially when it comes to resisting DD spells. I'd suggest changing all of them to bypass MR, and the only thing that halts me is the impact it may have on tactical mods. Nevertheless, something for you to think about

[Demivrgvs]

On a completely different note, Demivrgvs, I've finally pinned down how I want to rebalance the Insect spells. They all have a duration of 6 rounds, and are blocked by Magic Resistance.

Summon Insects: Casting time 5, 2hp Piercing damage/round, 33% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath with -1 bonus for half damage and half Spell Failure. +1 penalties to THAC0 and AC. In the first round victim must Save vs. Spell with a -1 bonus or undergo Fear for 1 round.

Insect Plague: Casting time 7, 2hp Piercing damage every 4 seconds, 50% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath for half damage and half Spell Failure. +2 penalty to THAC0 and +1 to AC. Each round, victims must Save vs. Spell or undergo Fear for 1 round.

Creeping Doom: Casting time 9, 2hp Piercing damage per second, 66% Spellcasting Failure, Save vs. Breath with +2 penalty for half damage and half Spell Failure. +2 penalties to THAC0 and AC. Each round, victims must Save vs. Spell with +1 penalty or undergo Fear for 1 round, and also Save vs. Death with +1 penalty or take 1hp of Poison damage every 3 seconds for the next 2 rounds.

 

Thoughts? Anyone?

You are making Summon Insects quite unappealing imo by assigning it only 12 points of damage against a single target (6 if a quite easy save is made). Insect Plague seems fine, having a higher delay between the bites is a nice idea to allow mages who succesfully save to have more chances to cast a spell without being interrupted by the damage. I like the poison ability of Creeping Doom (though it doesn't add much to the spell the way you've implemented it), but the spell is way overpowered imo: a friendly area spell, which deals up to 76 points of damage to everyone on screen, reduces AC and THAC0 by two, and can cause fear each round. I think you should reduce the damage by half, this way you'd have a very effective spell which deals a good good amount of damage while also causing a lot of side efffects. Just my 2 cents.

 

P.S. You should test the use of two simultaneously "Apply repeated EFF" opcodes, which I assume you are using to allow the damage to be halved. I'm not sure they stack because of my rencent tests, and/or they may cause the poison effect to not work.

 

Personally, I find Magic Resistance to be really overpowered, especially when it comes to resisting DD spells. I'd suggest changing all of them to bypass MR, and the only thing that halts me is the impact it may have on tactical mods. Nevertheless, something for you to think about

DD spells?

[Ardanis]

Direct Damage

[Demivrgvs]

I really don't think Evocation's spells (most direct damage spells belong to this school) should bypass Magic Resistance neither for balancing purposes nor for conceptual reasons.

 

I instead conceptually like that in 3rd edition Conjuration spells bypass Magic Resistance (and I did included it in a beta of SR), because it doesn't make much sense that insects summoned by Creeping Doom can't attack a magic resistant creature, and I may say the same for physical effects created by spells like Web and Entangle. That being said, I do think such a tweak seriously affects the balance between spells and hurts the AI if it can't take into account such a huge change.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I really don't think Evocation's spells (most direct damage spells belong to this school) should bypass Magic Resistance neither for balancing purposes nor for conceptual reasons.

But the area damage spells should pass through Mirror Images, so do they?

[Icendoan]

I think they do anyway.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

I really don't think Evocation's spells (most direct damage spells belong to this school) should bypass Magic Resistance neither for balancing purposes nor for conceptual reasons.

But the area damage spells should pass through Mirror Images, so do they?

I think they do anyway.

No they don't, but that is an entirely different story than magic resistance. Mirror Image effect is hardcoded, and I currently have no idea of a possible solution to this problem.