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No chance to not have kensais be bracer users, or restrict thieves from using wands?


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readme says:

# Item Restriction Changes

 

* Druids Shouldn't Wear Metal: Druids can no longer use helmets, and Fighter/Druids cannot wear helmets or metal armor.

* Kensais Can Use Bracers: Kensais now have access to bracers, but not gauntlets.

* Thieves Can Use Wands: But they will need to meet an INT requirement between 10 and 17, depending on the power of the wand.

 

But while I was given the option of not installing the druid component of this -- letting them continue to wear hats,

there doesn't seem to be a way to retain the old behaviour for kensai and bracers, and theives and wands.

 

Weidu log here:

 

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1 // Masterwork Weapons: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #9 // Allow Thieving Skills in Armor: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Revised Shield Bonuses: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #11 // Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #12 // Items of Protection Can Be Worn with Magical Armor: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #13 // Halberds Can Slash, Too: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #14 // Remove Cleric Weapon Restrictions from Multi-classed Clerics: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #16 // Restrict Fighter/Druids to Armor that Druids Can Wear: v1

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #17 // Weapon Changes: v1

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There is no components 2&3, yet. Referring to:

readme says:
# Item Restriction Changes

1)Druids Shouldn't Wear Metal: Druids can no longer use helmets, and Fighter/Druids cannot wear helmets or metal armor.

2) Kensais Can Use Bracers: Kensais now have access to bracers, but not gauntlets.

3) Thieves Can Use Wands: But they will need to meet an INT requirement between 10 and 17, depending on the power of the wand.

as an independent components...
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* Druids Shouldn't Wear Metal: Druids can no longer use helmets, and Fighter/Druids cannot wear helmets or metal armor.
This is not optionally either actually. The component is to patch mod added armors and helmets. I may make helmets restriction optional if it's really necessary, but druids shouldn't be allowed to use metal (except scimitars for some kind of reason). It's more a fix than a tweak imo.

 

* Kensais Can Use Bracers: Kensais now have access to bracers, but not gauntlets.
It can't be done optionally, at least we haven't find a way. This is actually "necessary" for my revised Kensai. :p
* Thieves Can Use Wands: But they will need to meet an INT requirement between 10 and 17, depending on the power of the wand.
I believe Mike can make this optional for V2, though I don't think it's a major problem.
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Do any druids in BG1 or 2 wear helmets?

I did a check on this a little while ago for BG2. I believe there's only one druid (maybe from mage stronghold quest?) who uses a regular helmet. Nyalee has an invisible helmet equipped, so it's probably just to prevent criticals.

 

There were a couple druids and/or fighter/druids that were wearing metal armor, though - some had splint mail and others had normal plate mail. I don't think I checked to see if any were using shields bigger than bucklers.

 

* Thieves Can Use Wands: But they will need to meet an INT requirement between 10 and 17, depending on the power of the wand.
I believe Mike can make this optional for V2, though I don't think it's a major problem.

Yes, they wouldn't be hard to make optional. We decided not to do so for the time being just to cut down on components. If there's a demand for it, we could make a separate version of this as well and/or one for kensai and bracers - but the kensai bracers would not be able to detect the difference between mod bracers and mod gauntlets - we'd need to set up a similar listing as we do with mod armors/shields if we wanted to keep track of them.

 

There is no components 2&3, yet.

But there are. :p Each option you can choose from a group is treated as its own component - the different casting in armor components, for example, all have different component numbers, though they'd never all be installed at the same time.

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No chance to not have kensais be bracer users, or restrict thieves from using wands?

 

Just don't equip them. :p

 

druids shouldn't be allowed to use metal (except scimitars for some kind of reason).

 

Daggers and spears with a metal edge as well; you could even make some specific metal weapon/armor, consider it iron wood, and usable by druids.

To make an exception to the rule, Mielikki's Druids can wield any sort of weapon/armor a standard ranger can.

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druids shouldn't be allowed to use metal (except scimitars for some kind of reason).
Daggers and spears with a metal edge as well; you could even make some specific metal weapon/armor, consider it iron wood, and usable by druids.

To make an exception to

Yeah, I just follow PnP in this matter. I've though about Ironwood, but while implementing it for armors and shields is "easy", there's no point on having a long sword made of ironwood, as the druid a) wouldn't have the proficiency b) and even if the druid could take the proficiency none would take it hoping to find the only ironwood weapon in the game. :p
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Resurrecting an old thread here rather than making a new one.

 

My intention is to request that the Kensai Bracers component be made optional. I don't know the rationale behind making Kensai able to use bracers, but I find it quite unbalancing.

Well, while making "thieves can use wands" optional shouldn't be a problem, having kensais use bracers is actually a little more complicate matter (e.g. the best bracers actually have a huge background tied to kensais).

 

Anyway, I'd like to know why you consider it unbalancing. Bracers don't grant kensai better AC than Spirit Armor, and I actually found more strange and unbalanced that a kensai-mage could wear an armored robe with base AC 5 while a true kensai was stuck with his AC 10.

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Kensai can have up to +9 AC, 7 from bracers and 2 innate. Other fighters can get full plate mail which already has more to offer (+4 vs slashing and +3 vs piering/missile weapons). Later in game, when kensai gets about +10 thaco/damage, there are +4 FPM with extra bonuses, plus fighter has his arms slot free for a pair of those +thaco/damage ones gauntles. I think it doesn't make a lot of unbalancing.

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Anyway, I'd like to know why you consider it unbalancing. Bracers don't grant kensai better AC than Spirit Armor, and I actually found more strange and unbalanced that a kensai-mage could wear an armored robe with base AC 5 while a true kensai was stuck with his AC 10.

 

It's mostly unbalancing before the Kensai is dualled to mage. With bracers of ac6, full dex bonus, class bonus and some magical items my Kensai would have -3ac halfway through BG1-BGT. This would be higher than most of my other party members, excluding Minsc the tank and Viconia. After he is dualled then the 2ac difference between the ac3 bracers and the ac5 robe isn't that great, though the extra -2ac helps mirror image and stone skin last longer.

 

Furthermore there is a huge difference between ac from spells, which wear of, and permanent ac. I don't use the armor spells all that often, but wouldn't the bracers also make these spells redundant for kensai?

 

My main argument is that bracers are not conceptually compatible with Kensai as they are designed in BG2.

Kensai need the fluidity and quickness of movement they get from not using armor to be deadly in combat. Bracers would weigh the arms down and slow their movement.

 

Granted, the bracers will not make tanks of kensai (dualing to mage does that) but with bracers they are not really any more vulnerable to enemy attacks than regular melee fighters (which they are supposed to be to balance their offensive bonuses).

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Ardanis already answered for me, but let's see...

 

First of all, I hate the kensage combo, it's ridiculous, and not a single sane DM on earth would allow it. The tweak is intended to make single class kensai shine, not the already overpowered kensage one.

 

It's mostly unbalancing before the Kensai is dualled to mage. With bracers of ac6, full dex bonus, class bonus and some magical items my Kensai would have -3ac halfway through BG1-BGT. This would be higher than most of my other party members, excluding Minsc the tank and Viconia.
Well, reaching -3 AC shouldn't be so easy at all. Bracers AC 6, +4 from DEX, +2 innate, +1 ring or amulet of protection makes AC -1, and I don't know what else can be added on top of that in BG1. Any thief/ranger with same DEX would have the same AC with Shadow Armor (plus hidden AC bonuses mentioned by Ardanis) and would still have the bracer's slot free.

 

Furthermore there is a huge difference between ac from spells, which wear of, and permanent ac. I don't use the armor spells all that often, but wouldn't the bracers also make these spells redundant for kensai?
Not even the best pair of bracers in the whole game can make Spirit Armor redundant as it would still grant +2 AC and +3 to saves vs most spells.

 

My main argument is that bracers are not conceptually compatible with Kensai as they are designed in BG2.

Kensai need the fluidity and quickness of movement they get from not using armor to be deadly in combat. Bracers would weigh the arms down and slow their movement.

So, a pair of bracers which probably weights as much as a rolex encumber a kensai more than an armored archmage's robe? ??? Wearing long vests, armors, helmets, iron gauntlets, and so on is one thing, but if 0.5-1lb distribuited on two forearms can slow him down or hampers his fighting skills than he also probably can't wield anything heavier than a knife. :p

 

Granted, the bracers will not make tanks of kensai (dualing to mage does that) but with bracers they are not really any more vulnerable to enemy attacks than regular melee fighters (which they are supposed to be to balance their offensive bonuses).
That's quite a wrong statement with IR. I have to reapeat what Ardanis just said.

 

Kensai: BoA base AC 3, +2 innate means base AC 1. Add +4 from DEX if you wish and you reach -3.

 

Fighter: full plate mail +4 has base AC -3 (-7 vs. slashing weapons, -6 vs. piercing), without taking DEX into account.

 

Fighters can easily achieve the same AC (and IR's armors usually have nice while equipped abilities on top of that), they would still have the bracers/gauntlets slot free (which means a nasty additional effect such as +1/2 attack per round), and they can wear helmets and shields (which makes a huge difference with IR).

 

 

P.S Of one thing I'm sure though, Bracers of AC 3 are really too easily found! Ribald has both AC 4 and 3 versions, which actually cause the former to be almost useless, thus I'll leave Bracers of AC 4 there for purchase while we should find a good place to put the BoA 3 (they shouldn't be available before Spellhold imo).

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First of all, I hate the kensage combo, it's ridiculous, and not a single sane DM on earth would allow it. The tweak is intended to make single class kensai shine, not the already overpowered kensage one.

 

Why is it so very different from fighter/mage? Granted, the "class dualing" system of BG isn't all that good and opens up for some stupid/unrealistic combinations. My personal favorite must be Kensai/thief with "use any item" HLA.

 

Well, reaching -3 AC shouldn't be so easy at all. Bracers AC 6, +4 from DEX, +2 innate, +1 ring or amulet of protection makes AC -1, and I don't know what else can be added on top of that in BG1. Any thief/ranger with same DEX would have the same AC with Shadow Armor (plus hidden AC bonuses mentioned by Ardanis) and would still have the bracer's slot free.

 

In BWS it isn't all that difficult. There are a lot of mods that add AC stuff.

But ignoring this you could get as low as AC -4 in BG1 with vanilla items and proficiencies by my count. -4 dex, -2 Kit, -4 bracers, -2 Ring of resistance, -2 single weapon style. With proper boots and belt this would in reality be closer to -7 for most weapons. If you add spells on top of this then we get below -10...

 

Not even the best pair of bracers in the whole game can make Spirit Armor redundant as it would still grant +2 AC and +3 to saves vs most spells.

 

True... I was thinking of the "armor and ghost armor" spells however. These don't stack with bracers and thus becomes redundant for the "kensage"

 

So, a pair of bracers which probably weights as much as a rolex encumber a kensai more than an armored archmage's robe? ??? Wearing long vests, armors, helmets, iron gauntlets, and so on is one thing, but if 0.5-1lb distribuited on two forearms can slow him down or hampers his fighting skills than he also probably can't wield anything heavier than a knife. :D

 

Let's get our perspectives in order first... The AC6 bracers in BG weight 2lbs, about 1kg, which I will grant you is not that much (Though a fair deal more than a Rolex). Their description and appearance though suggest that they in reality should weigh considerably more than 2lbs. ("Bracers are thick bands of metal or leather that are strapped, belted, or tied to a character's forearm.") For this kind of armor to offer any significant protection from slashing or blunt damage it needs to be thick and sturdy, so this would put them closer to 6lbs I should think. But of course... These are magical bracers (which always explains everything).

 

As for the robes they are basically magical cloth (without plates of metal I should think). They are not all that heavy and even Kensai have to wear clothes. If they hang lose then I agree that they are not suited for a fighter relying on movement and flexibility. I see no reason why a magical robe could not be tied up or altered to fit the users needs however. (They are obviously of the one-size fits all type already, whether this is a magical property or XXXL size cloth is unknown :p )

 

Granted, the bracers will not make tanks of kensai (dualing to mage does that) but with bracers they are not really any more vulnerable to enemy attacks than regular melee fighters (which they are supposed to be to balance their offensive bonuses).
That's quite a wrong statement with IR. I have to reapeat what Ardanis just said.

 

Kensai: BoA base AC 3, +2 innate means base AC 1. Add +4 from DEX if you wish and you reach -3.

 

Fighter: full plate mail +4 has base AC -3 (-7 vs. slashing weapons, -6 vs. piercing), without taking DEX into account.

 

I have yet to find a +4 Full plate mail in BG1 and to my recollection they are quite rare in BG2 as well... If memory serves even Dragon scale full plate mail shouldn't be more than base AC -1. Obviously a Kensai will never have low enough AC to tank like a fighter in full plate mail (without spells) but that wasn't my point either.

 

 

P.S Of one thing I'm sure though, Bracers of AC 3 are really too easily found! Ribald has both AC 4 and 3 versions, which actually cause the former to be almost useless, thus I'll leave Bracers of AC 4 there for purchase while we should find a good place to put the BoA 3 (they shouldn't be available before Spellhold imo).

 

Agreed. They would have been fitting in a dragons horde (no shortage of those in BG2). What about the blue one in Watcher's Keep for instance...?

 

Ps. Permitting thieves to use wands is standard 3rd edition ADnD rules, no...?

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First of all, I hate the kensage combo, it's ridiculous, and not a single sane DM on earth would allow it. The tweak is intended to make single class kensai shine, not the already overpowered kensage one.
Why is it so very different from fighter/mage? Granted, the "class dualing" system of BG isn't all that good and opens up for some stupid/unrealistic combinations. My personal favorite must be Kensai/thief with "use any item" HLA.
Kensai/thief + HLA is a pure cheat imo. It's different because kensai's background makes very hard to justify such charcater suddenly shifting all the devotion from fighting skills to magical studies. Kensai means "sword saint", the character is a sort of paladin who's faith is his very own martial skill. Can you imagine such character spend 18 years training to become one with his weapon of choice and then say "no, I want to read tons of books and become a mage!"?

 

In terms of gameplay the difference from F-M and kensage is pretty obvious, kensai is supposed to not wear anything in his body slot, but dualing to mage negate this restriction (sounds like an exploit to me). Thus dualing to mage for a kensai means getting more armor, for a fighter means getting less armor. Dualing instead of multiclassing also allow you to get almost all the kit's advantages with few levels (you get +2 AC, +x thac0/dmg) because of how kits are poorly designed within BG.

 

In BWS it isn't all that difficult (to reach really low AC). There are a lot of mods that add AC stuff. ...
Well, I know many mods adds additional magical equipment, but it's not my fault if mod added items grant too many bonuses. IR strives to be balanced within itself, but I cannot take into account tons of eventual mod added items, especially considering it's a well known fact that most item adding mods aren't balanced at all (e.g. DoTSC, Item Upgrade, ...) and very few mods care about making items interesting instead of simply powerful (e.g. I actually consider RR the only mod with IR-like philosophy for items).

 

Anyway, the point was, any AC the kensai can reach at a certain point of the game will always be worse than the AC a fighter can reach at the same stage of the game. Heavy armors, helmets, and shields makes a huge difference, especially with IR!

 

Wearing long vests, armors, helmets, iron gauntlets, and so on is one thing, but if 0.5-1lb distribuited on two forearms can slow him down or hampers his fighting skills than he also probably can't wield anything heavier than a knife.
Let's get our perspectives in order first... The AC6 bracers in BG weight 2lbs, about 1kg, which I will grant you is not that much. Their description and appearance though suggest that they in reality should weigh considerably more than 2lbs. ("Bracers are thick bands of metal or leather that are strapped, belted, or tied to a character's forearm.") For this kind of armor to offer any significant protection from slashing or blunt damage it needs to be thick and sturdy, so this would put them closer to 6lbs I should think. But of course... These are magical bracers (which always explains everything).
Well, actually those bracers only weight 1lb in my install, which means 0.5 each. I assure you that only a child with the strength of an ooze would find a pair of leather bracers heavy once stripped to the forearms, you wouldn't even notice you're wearing them once you get used to them.

 

And then yes, on top of that they are magical, they don't need a double-layer steel plate to fend off a sword.

 

I have yet to find a +4 Full plate mail in BG1 and to my recollection they are quite rare in BG2 as well... If memory serves even Dragon scale full plate mail shouldn't be more than base AC -1. Obviously a Kensai will never have low enough AC to tank like a fighter in full plate mail (without spells) but that wasn't my point either.
Who said a full plate +4 was available in BG1? We said a non magical full plate in BG1 is enough to grant more protection than bracers+kensai's innate AC, and that in BG2 a full plate +4 grants more protection than the best bracers+kensai's innate AC can.

 

P.S I suggest you to take a look at the Item Index because I think you're not taking IR's changes into account. Red Dragonplate Armor (a plate mail within IR) grants AC -2, and Blue Dragonplate Armor (a full plate mail within IR) grants AC -4.

 

P.S Of one thing I'm sure though, Bracers of AC 3 are really too easily found! Ribald has both AC 4 and 3 versions, which actually cause the former to be almost useless, thus I'll leave Bracers of AC 4 there for purchase while we should find a good place to put the BoA 3 (they shouldn't be available before Spellhold imo).
Agreed. They would have been fitting in a dragons horde (no shortage of those in BG2). What about the blue one in Watcher's Keep for instance...?
Maybe, there's a whole topic about "items re-allocation", I'll add this to the discussion.

 

Permitting thieves to use wands is standard 3rd edition ADnD rules, no...?
Yep. And even in the old AD&D mid level thieves are able to cast spells from scrolls with a % failure rate.
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