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Just my humble opinion


DrAzTiK

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... or I probably prefer to make BG1 items balanced for BG1 and a little underpowered for BG2. Finding the same weapon already used with increased stats seems immersive-breaking to me.

That's what I'm talking about.

 

... but what's wrong with Cromwell/the Imp offering to upgrade a handful of extra weapons?

That's not I'm talking about, but it is a very nice idea for BGT and I liked it. :p

But if you remember, when you transition from BG1 to BG2 you loose all your equipment and find some of them in Irenicus Dungeon only. For the item upgrade option, BG1 items needs to be placed in BG2.

 

Greetings Leomar

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... or I probably prefer to make BG1 items balanced for BG1 and a little underpowered for BG2. Finding the same weapon already used with increased stats seems immersive-breaking to me.

That's what I'm talking about.

 

... but what's wrong with Cromwell/the Imp offering to upgrade a handful of extra weapons?

That's not I'm talking about, but it is a very nice idea for BGT and I liked it. :p

But if you remember, when you transition from BG1 to BG2 you loose all your equipment and find some of them in Irenicus Dungeon only. For the item upgrade option, BG1 items needs to be placed in BG2.

 

Greetings Leomar

We're mostly talking about the items that are already found in both games (oh, and maybe random other ones for evil quest rewards per suggestion) - I don't think it's possible to make them useful at the points where you get them in SoA without them being overpowered in the BG1 portion, unless there are multiple versions of the item. Using a merchant or the like to 'upgrade' them to SoA quality would be a way to implement this that should seem less unrealistic. Balancing them for BG1 only and forgetting about BG2 would make items like the Short Sword of Backstabbing either easily replaceable or not even worth obtaining.

 

I'm sensing that people are most concerned that the items existing in both games are overpowered in the BG1 portion of BGT (for the most part, currently, they are). Our goal is for the items to be balanced in both games, but it may take some time to get to this point.

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Re :)

 

I would like to know your POV about :

 

# Item Restriction Changes

 

* Druids Shouldn't Wear Metal: Druids can no longer use helmets, and Fighter/Druids cannot wear helmets or metal armor.

What is the purpose of this modification ? To be right with P&P rules ? Druids are a pain class in BG2, especially in comparaison with Priests. So why ?It's impossible to enjoy play a druid or a fighter/druid with this modifications imo unless with a rebalancing mod for druid.

 

In addition, you give huge bonus for Multi-classed Clerics with nothing more that a component "Remove Cleric Weapon Restrictions from Multi-classed Clerics ". I know it's a optional component but i try to follow your logical.

 

# Weapon Changes

By and large, damages seems to be increase significantly especially with :

 

* Two-Handed Swords: Base damage changed from 1d10 to 2d6.

* War Hammers: Base damage changed from 1d4+1 to 1d8. Base speed changed from 5 to 7.

* Flails: Base damage changed from 1d6+1 to 1d10. Base speed changed from 7 to 9.

 

Don't you think the game will be more easier ? And if you want to all weapons be attractives, why 2d6 only for tow-handed swords only and not for hallbards ?? and spears ?

 

 

Main problem is that we must accept your modifications for druids and damage changes for weapons to enjoy your mod.

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Druids Shouldn't Wear Metal

What is the purpose of this modification ? To be right with P&P rules ? Druids are a pain class in BG2, especially in comparaison with Priests. So why ?It's impossible to enjoy play a druid or a fighter/druid with this modifications imo unless with a rebalancing mod for druid.
To make them more in line with PnP, and for general consistency (druids couldn't wear metal even in vanilla game, the rule simply "forgot" helmets for some reason).

 

Regarding druid being a weak class, my last run I had Jaheira in the party and she really rocks imo. Anyway, if you don't know it Spell Revisions should make their spell selection much more effective, and in the future I'd like to revise the class too.

 

Weapon Changes

The game surely won't be easier because of that, and enemies are affected by these changes as well. Let's explain the reasons behind the changes:

- Two Handed Swords: I've raised their damage yes, but else both dual wielding and sword+shield were far more appealing weapon styles

- Halberd & Spear: Raj already said about the PnP damage output. I've raised spear's damage to 1D8 because 1D6 was really too low for a two handed weapon. They don't have greatsword's damage output, but piercing damage is more effective than slashing one, and spears also have a quite better speed factor

- Warhammer: the only high enchanted hammers in-game (Crom Fayer and Runehammer) were dealing 2D4 damage in vanilla, thus my change actually makes all of them more similar

 

Main problem is that we must accept your modifications for druids and damage changes for weapons to enjoy your mod.
Sometimes I really don't want a particular aspect to be optional because it may actually ruin my efforts on the revisions. For example I really didn't liked to make "Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armors" optional, because IR's armors without that component are quite "unbalanced" (light armors and medium armors are just way too weak compared to heavy ones, just like it was in vanilla).
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Ty for reply to me :)

 

First i would say that i would be very bad at balancing weapons or items. However i think to feel pretty good when modifications for balance may make easier the game.

 

I understand your pov however I think it is good to move away from PnP rules sometimes for a better balance of class, weapons or items. Furthermore PNP rules are not perfect.

 

Damage are by and large increase (2d6, 1d10 for many one handed wepaons) and ok in line with PnP :

Ennemy have same weapons yes but a large majority don't have conventionnal weapons. (dragons, undead, golem etc...). I say this for the difficullty . ( game more easier)

 

I would like just to say that advantages of two handed weapons are offen forgotten : distance you can hit(real bonus imo), proficiency more appealing. ( +1 damage, critical hit on 1D19 and 1D20 etc...).

But ok, maybe dual wielding and sword+shield are more appealing and worth to be balanced. I could understand the 2D6 for two handed sword but then Halberd & Spear seems significantly less powerfull than 2handed sword. :) 1D8 for spears is just normal if you increase two handed sword, it's not a balancing. And halberds ?

 

I don't know if speed factor ( who change with magical weapons) or piercing damage is so effective. Futhermore we have a lot of one handed weapons whith 1D10 damage! (this disturb me a litlle lol ) with your mod now.

 

Have you ever think about also change effects of proficiency for weapons ?

 

Flail is the most increase weapons imo in your mod. (more that warhammer)

 

Ok for druids and Jaheira . The fact light armors and medium armors are more appealing should balance this .

 

 

For example I really didn't liked to make "Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armors" optional, because IR's armors without that component are quite "unbalanced" (light armors and medium armors are just way too weak compared to heavy ones, just like it was in vanilla).

 

What you say is very important imo and it should be good to notice this sentence on top of the read me ! I am not sure that a large majority install dexterity penalty and is aware of how this element is important to balance armors lol.

 

For my part i have not installed this component for this reason : Dexterity's modifications is not fair imo.

A warrior in heavy armor with 14 dexterity will have no reduction at CA and thac0 while a warrior with 17 dexterity will be so penalized.

 

Movement penality is fair and i like this component but dexterity penality is not fair coz bonus allow for characteristics are not consistent in BG2. It's a problem imo for the balancing of your dexterity component.

 

Imho it is strange and paradoxical to lose AC bonus with an item whose main fonction is to give AC bonus . Maybe only a thac0 penality ?(like the large shield)

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Weapon Changes

Damage are by and large increase (2d6, 1d10 for many one handed wepaons) and ok in line with PnP : Ennemy have same weapons yes but a large majority don't have conventionnal weapons. (dragons, undead, golem etc...). I say this for the difficullty . ( game more easier)
Well, in a situation where you have few or none characters using greatswords against multiple opponents using spears, flails or greatswords, the mod will "make the game harder". That being said, I can assure you a +1 bonus to damage won't be able to significantly change the game balance. Higher values are needed to really affect balance, and special abilities are what can effectively make the game easier if not properly "monitored". :)

 

I could understand the 2D6 for two handed sword but then Halberd & Spear seems significantly less powerfull than 2handed sword.
Here's something that some may not know, because of "hidden" AC bonuses from armors piercing weapons have a better chance to hit armored opponents. The bonus they have compared to slashing weapons are: +2 vs. leather armors, +1 vs. studded leather, +2 vs. chain mail, +3 vs. plate mail, and +1 vs. full plate. I do think +1 to damage and +1 to thac0 are more or less the same "bonus", and I would even prefer thac0 on most situations.

Spears can be used by more classes (druids can use them, while they can't use neither greatswords nor halberds), they are quite faster than greatswords/halberds (I know it's not a huge issue, but I can't act as if this bonus doesn't exist), and in IR there's also a trowable spear (which should enhance the appeal of the proficiency imo).

 

Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armors

What you say is very important imo and it should be good to notice this sentence on top of the read me ! I am not sure that a large majority install dexterity penalty and is aware of how this element is important to balance armors lol.
You may be right about adding a note to hint it. Speaking of that, both the current "Dual Wielding Changes for light and heavy weapons " and the upcoming "backstab component" add disadvantages exactly to weapons you're concerned of (1D10 damaging ones), though they less crucial than the armor's one for balancing purposes.

 

Obvioulsy players are free to avoid those components, but they shouldn't complain about IR making the game easier if they only install its "bonuses" without installing its "restrictions".

For example I can't do nothing about balance if a player decide to install IR's Rashad's Talon (quite improved), but avoid IR's Belm (which will be nerfed); I can't force a player to install IR's penalties to backstab to avoid the known exploit of having The Staff of Ram as the best backstabbing weapon ever created in The Realms; and so on...

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I thought the benefit gained from a set or armor would always outweigh the loss of AC through reduced DEX. Does that "A warrior in heavy armor with 14 dexterity will have no reduction at CA and thac0 while a warrior with 17 dexterity will be so penalized" example mean this isn't the case?

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What I was really hoping for with this mod was an equalization of the attractiveness of all weapon types. So you wouldn't feel like you were missing something because no one in your party specialized in katanas and you just have to have celestial fury. And its not about nerfing everything in sight either. The game can be made incredibly difficult without much trouble. I want there to be more options that make sense and make the game fun. So if I have a fighter that wants to specialized in staffs or spears or daggers, I won't feel like an idiot for doing so through most of the game until I get the one TOB item that makes it somewhat worthwhile. I must admit that I have been only partially satisfied at this point because it does seem that you play favorites with certain weapon classes. But don't take that criticism too strongly because I do tend to like the overall flavor of your changes.

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What I was really hoping for with this mod was an equalization of the attractiveness of all weapon types.

 

My experience is that the mod accomplishes at that.

 

I'm near the end of tob with a game started 3 weeks ago ( *coff* nerd *cough* ) and my 3 fighters are having a hard time chosing which weapon to use; the barbarian with 2 stars in half a dozen different weapons types and 2weapons style tried a ton of different combinations and all have their advantages.

The only weapons I didn't use through the whole game are spears, short swords and daggers because of lack of proficiencies ( and because they are not very heroic, while the spear could be ok on the barbarian then it's a pain to swap weapons ) but I'd say the weapons are all balanced.

This is with a end-game prospective, when your bag of holding is filled with every sort of magic stick.

 

What ruins a bit the balance is the availability of powerful weapons: the early soa is full of decent long swords, good greatswords and a powerful flail, so if you start with these proficiencies you are going to have a easier time than starting with, let say, halberds and katanas. When choosing starting proficiencies some metagaming is needed if you don't want to get stuck with a shop bought weapon for too long, but then 1) this issue is worse in the unmodded game*, 2) there were plans to move some weapons ( mainly discussion about bastard swords, anyway after the introduction of lawgiver I'd say they no longer need help ) and 3) some very easy to get powerful weapons ( FoA in primis ) got a deserved nerf, so they're not anymore the best choice for all situations/characters.

 

Afterall, playing with IR is a lot better than playing without it.

 

 

*I used to buy/pickpocket the axe with fire dmg from Bernard 2 minutes after escaping Irenicus dungeon and use it through the whole soa, sometime as offhand in tob too :)

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Raj, there are a couple of posts - #39 and #40 - in the "Plans for future releases" topic that I'd like you to take a look at, considering you're near the end of ToB. Perhaps you could reply in that topic. I'm very interested to hear your opinions on Belm, Kundane and the Short Sword of Backstabbing being "always used" weapons.

 

My main concern with the SSoB is that if it effectively gives +5 to THAC0 for thieves, any thief without the Short Sword proficiency will miss out. And considering Level One NPCs allows us to give whatever profs we want to each character, why would you NOT assign each thief the Short Sword proficiency? But every single thief having the same proficiencies is lame.

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I thought the benefit gained from a set or armor would always outweigh the loss of AC through reduced DEX.
Fear not, it's obviously as you think. Not only armors will always provide more AC than the AC "lost" from dexterity penalties, but heavier armors always provide better AC than light ones even to characters with incredibly high dexterity.

 

For example, let's consider a character with DEX 18 (+4 to AC):

- Studded Leather has no dex penalty, base AC 7 --> total AC 3

- Chain Mail has -1 dex penalty, base AC 5 --> total AC 2

- Plate Mail has -2 dex penalty, base AC 3 --> total AC 1

- Full Plate has -3 dex penalty, base AC 1 --> total AC 0

 

Amongst other things this component should allows a player to create a fighter in light armor with high dexterity without thinking "damn I'm incredibly stupid if I don't combine those uber more protective heavy armors with an uber dexterity value".

 

What I was really hoping for with this mod was an equalization of the attractiveness of all weapon types. ... I must admit that I have been only partially satisfied at this point because it does seem that you play favorites with certain weapon classes.
My experience is that the mod accomplishes at that.
J Beau,

if I ever had favoured a weapon type surely it wasn't intentional. I'd like to know which ones you think I have fovoured and which ones I left too unimproved. I can't do nothing about it if I don't know on what I should put more efforts.

 

Raj,

I'm glad you're more satisfied, and rest assured that I'll try to improve IR with players' feedback. I agree on almost all you said and:

1) I'll try to make each proficiency equally efficient in the early stages of the game if I can. I think it shouldn't be a huge issue anymore right now, but let me know which weapons are still a biit lacking (P.S katanas are and will remain rare :) ); regarding halberds availability: Suryris's Blade is quite good and available from Ribald right out of the first dungeon, Duskblade is now extremely efficient imo (not so difficult to obtain either as you don't need to kill the black dragon), Wyrmcleaver is also considered +3 enchanted when determining what it can hit (though more difficult than the average quest I usually end up doing the Unseeing Eye quest quite soon in most games).

2) Lawgiver is a quite good bastard sword, and very easily available. I'll probably add at least a +2 bastard sword in the early chapters of SoA (either Albruin or Bloodbrand) as all other weapon types have one.

3) FoA is going to be further nerfed in V2, and generally I think the trend for future releases will be to slightly reduce items' power level when opportune

 

Short Sword of Backstabbing

I think that I'll slightly reduce its power, though I really don't think it currently represents the end of all thief's weapons, as Raj better illustrates in another topic. I'll remove +2 thac0 bonus, and then I have to decide if it's worth to make it work as a +3 weapon only in a thief's hand or leave it as it is.

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Not only armors will always provide more AC than the AC "lost" from dexterity penalties, but heavier armors always provide better AC than light ones even to characters with incredibly high dexterity.

 

And this is true regardless of the character's dexterity, even if it's 20 (or higher!)? If so, why was that dude complaining:

 

A warrior in heavy armor with 14 dexterity will have no reduction at CA and thac0 while a warrior with 17 dexterity will be so penalized.

 

If what you've said is true, I don't see how the warrior with 17 dexterity is worse off than the one with 14 dexterity. Anyway, I won't worry about it and will just install the component to balance out the armors, safe in the knowledge that I can use the heaviest armors if I want and still have a lower AC than if I'd used a light armor (just like it is in the stock game, but this time more balanced).

 

Tell me, do you take an actual armor's weight into account when deciding on the DEX penalty, or does it simply depend on which category it falls under? I think I saw someone make the point about Ahnkeg armor earlier, and considering it's so light, I don't think its DEX penalty should be as great as with regular plate. Are you able to deal with armors on a case-by-case basis if needs be?

 

Short Sword of Backstabbing

I was thinking that you should perhaps reduce the bonus thief THAC0 to just +1, but then I thought "Oi, why should thieves have a +4 to THAC0 sword so early in the game?". I mean, will the weapon suddenly become crap if it "only" gives +3 THAC0 (to anyone who uses it) and increases the backstab multiplier by 1 for thieves? I wouldn't have thought so.

 

If everyone thinks that removing the THAC0 bonus for thieves makes it too weak, how about adding a small amount of extra damage or something for when a thief uses it, to compensate for the loss of bonus THAC0?

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Short Sword of Backstabbing

I think that I'll slightly reduce its power, though I really don't think it currently represents the end of all thief's weapons, as Raj better illustrates in another topic. I'll remove +2 thac0 bonus, and then I have to decide if it's worth to make it work as a +3 weapon only in a thief's hand or leave it as it is.

 

As I suggested in another topic, the Short Sword of Backstabbing could be made interesting by allowing the same +1 bonus to backstab multiplier like daggers have.

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Dexterity Penalties

And this is true regardless of the character's dexterity, even if it's 20 (or higher!)? If so, why was that dude complaining:

 

A warrior in heavy armor with 14 dexterity will have no reduction at CA and thac0 while a warrior with 17 dexterity will be so penalized.

 

If what you've said is true, I don't see how the warrior with 17 dexterity is worse off than the one with 14 dexterity.

Because the warrior with higher dexterity will be penalized more than the one with low dexterity:

 

Let's consider a character with DEX 17 (+3 to AC):

- Studded Leather has no dex penalty, base AC 7 --> total AC 4

- Chain Mail has -1 dex penalty, base AC 5 --> total AC 3

- Plate Mail has -2 dex penalty, base AC 3 --> total AC 2

- Full Plate has -3 dex penalty, base AC 1 --> total AC 1

 

Let's consider a character with DEX 14 (+0 to AC):

- Studded Leather has no dex penalty, base AC 7 --> total AC 7

- Chain Mail has -1 dex penalty, base AC 5 --> total AC 5

- Plate Mail has -2 dex penalty, base AC 3 --> total AC 3

- Full Plate has -3 dex penalty, base AC 1 --> total AC 1

 

The heavier the armor the smaller is the effectiveness of having very high dexterity, in this particular case both character will have the same AC in full plate, but the character with higher dexterity could use the plate mail with pratically the same AC of a full plate but with less penalties, and faster movements (that is why even movement penalties are "needed" to balance armors).

 

Dexterity penalties aren't there to lower the AC, they are there to reproduce the fact that a character can't fully take advantage of quick and reactive movements while wearing heavy and cumbersome armors.

 

Tell me, do you take an actual armor's weight into account when deciding on the DEX penalty, or does it simply depend on which category it falls under?
Indeed, penalties are tied to weight. Ankheg Plate is lighter than normal plate mail, and thus has lower penalties.

 

Short Sword of Backstabbing

As I suggested in another topic, the Short Sword of Backstabbing could be made interesting by allowing the same +1 bonus to backstab multiplier like daggers have.
Actually it already works like that.

My recommended option for daggers will be the one without the multiplier bonus because of how they'll be implemented, else I would like them quite much. I'll "balance" daggers by giving them slightly better effects compared to other type of weapons with the same "availability" (they already work like that as most early SoA daggers have a +4 total enhancement bonus instead of +3), and by assigning them effects that are particularly tailored to sneak attacks (again something I think I've already done).

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