Clubs and Backstabbing

[lac]

Demivrgvs, I am liking this table. I still wonder what we should do about the short sword of backstabbing. And I am still uncertain about scimitars --

if they are more like short swords or long swords.

[Jarno Mikkola]

• +1 bonus for: dagger (if doable)
  
• No penalty for: short sword, wakizashi, ninja-to, club
  
• -1 penalty for: long sword, katana, scimitar
  
• -2 penalty for: axe, bastard sword, mace, morning star, quarterstaff, warhammer
  
• -3 penalty for: two-handed weapons, flails
  

I would really be satisfied with that list except that: You can't stab anything with a quarterstaff, cause it just doesn't have a blade in it, so move it to -3, and what comes to the speed factor of a quaterstaff, I thing it's so small because it has two ends, not because it's actually faster to swing with the same head to attack. But with the same breath a two handed weapon that you can stab somethings with would be a spear, so it can replace the quaterstaff, to the -2 penalty box. Done.

[Guest Guest]

I thought we'd agree that "backstab" just meant "sneak attack", not literally "stab in the back with a blade". I'm much happier thinking that a backstab is just a sneak attack from behind.

[lac]

re: short sword of backstabbing

 

Rogue Rebalancing makes it upgradable by Cespenar.

 

see http://rogue.rebalancing.googlepages.com/RR_UPGR.HTML

 

just in case this is relevant...

[Ardanis]

the speed factor of a quaterstaff, I thing it's so small because it has two ends, not because it's actually faster to swing with the same head to attack.

Not really, it's fast due to the weight balance - you hold it with two hands onto the middle, not onto the end like a sword. Get any 5 ft long stick and see for yourself.

And this speed makes a staff great for defence, speaking of which, I wonder if staves should provide AC bonus to wielder. Just an idea, if someone needs it.

[lac]

I thought we'd agree that "backstab" just meant "sneak attack", not literally "stab in the back with a blade". I'm much happier thinking that a backstab is just a sneak attack from behind.

 

I don't think anybody is saying that you have to stab with a blade -- everybody is fine with backstabbing with

clubs. Where you and I part company, I believe, is that you believe that any sneak attack should be able to

do 4, 5, or 7x as much damage as a normal attack, because its sneaky, and I think that only very small

weapons with which you can sneak around with and then make a precision attack should be suitable for backstabbing bonuses at all. And the table is a compromise between the outright banning I would lean towards,

and the 'let them backstab with everything' approach that I believe you are advocating.

[Salk]

Only now I have been wondering if in the game there are any backstabbing thieves that use two-handed weapons.

 

If that is the case, I would change my proposed table to give a -4 to the worst category instead of a "No backstabbing multiplier".

[Jarno Mikkola]

If that is the case, I would change my proposed table to give a -4 to the worst category instead of a "No backstabbing multiplier".

But that doesn't make any sense since I don't think any off the thieves in game have actually been flagged as Assasins, as they are the only once that would benefit from the -4 modified backstab modifiers, much less the once that use two handed weapons or flails. And technically you would just set the backstab modifier to -6 instead of -4, bacause of Assasins... but I still think that the -3 is enough to discourage anyone to really tring to kill everyone with backstab, with two handed swords.

[Ardanis]

Got intrigued and performed a little test to check if my memory serves me well. It apparently does.

Guys, the whole arguing about 2h swords, bastards, flails, etc., is entirely pointless for one simple reason - you physically may not backstab with any of those in game. You'll get "Your weapon is unsuitable for backstab" line.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Got intrigued and performed a little test to check if my memory serves me well. It apparently does.

Guys, the whole arguing about 2h swords, bastards, flails, etc., is entirely pointless for one simple reason - you physically may not backstab with any of those in game. You'll get "Your weapon is unsuitable for backstab" line.

That's because you can, but you have to modify the weapon... which you can do with L1NPCs for example. So experiment with that.

[Ardanis]

From that torrent of code I've derived a clue that a weapon can BS if it's usable by a thief. Never thought it'd be such. Ah, well...

[Salk]

This sheds new light on the whole thing...

 

The final table must include then only weapons allowed to thieves. Good...

[Jarno Mikkola]

This sheds new light on the whole thing...

The final table must include then only weapons allowed to thieves. Good...

And that list is all the weapons, remember?

So it doesn't shed new light, does it?

[Salk]

I forgot about the infamous Use Any Item ability, even because I suspect that in my game there will be no space for it at all.

 

Still, there is new light shed because I would eliminate from the table those weapons whose use is not allowed to Thieves without "Use any item".

 

The default condition is in fact that one above.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Still, there is new light shed because I would eliminate from the table those weapons whose use is not allowed to Thieves without "Use any item".

Even still, as the weapons will be usable with a set minimum strength or dexterity count, if not specifically specified by other items restrictions, there is no reason not to apply the multiplier, after all it's still determined by something, even if it's -6 by default. Now, I am not even sure it's -6 by default, so the Assasins wouldn't be able to use two handed swords to backstab, without unintended bonuses.