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Armor Physical Resistances


Demivrgvs

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This is something many players asked for, and I previously considered it an unbalancing factor (Refinement's component surely is imo) which I would have never implemented but I've come up with a solution that I personally find very interesting, and I'd like to know your opinions.

 

Some of you may not know that each armor type grants various "hidden" AC bonuses against selected type of weapons (e.g. leather armors are weak against piercing/missile weapons, splint mails are powerful against crushing weapons). Anyway I think this cool idea was not so well implemented (e.g. hide armors resulted worse than studded ones) and I previously thought to completely remove those bonuses for balance issues. Now I think that replacing those AC bonuses with a small % of physical resistance would be a cooler and more interesting solution.

 

This component will be similar to Refinement's one, though IR's resistance values will surely be much smaller, and should also provide a little incentive to players who currently don't like too much how IR handles Armor's Encumbrance Penalties. This component will only be available together with "Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor" option. Light and medium armors are already too weak without that option installed, and physical resistances would further increase the appeal of heavy armors over lighter ones.

 

AC modifiers in the following table are actually a bonus with when negative (-) and a penalty when positive (+)

 

Armor Class vs. Weapon Types (current behaviour)
Armor Slashing Piercing Bludgeoning Missile
Leather 0 +2 0 +2
Studded Leather -2 -1 0 -1
Hide Armor 0 +2 0 +2
Chain Mail -2 0 +2 0
Splint Mail 0 -1 -2 -1
Plate Mail -3 0 0 0
Full Plate -4 -3 0 -3

 

The following values aren't definitive, and I'd like to discuss them.

 

Physical Damage Resistance for Armors in IR (proposed change)
Armor Slashing Piercing Bludgeoning Missile
Leather Armor 0% 0% 0% 0%
Studded Leather 5% 0% 0% 0%
Hide Armor 5% 5% 5% 0%
Chain Mail 10% 5% 0% 10%
Splint Mail 10% 5% 5% 10%
Plate Mail 10% 5% 5% 10%
Full Plate 15% 10% 5% 20%

Notes:

 

- crushing weapons are the most effective: thus improving club and staff appeal, but perhaps making too effective a high damaging weapon such as the flail

 

- piercing weapons generally are more effective than slashing ones: thus improving dagger, short sword, spear and halberd appeal; greatsword's 2D6 damage outupt woul be slightly downsized (though against unarmored opponents would still be the best one) which is fine

 

- missile weapon against heavy armored opponents would be quite penalized, which is "realistic" imo. Anyway IR's projectiles generally are more damaging than in vanilla.

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Personally I like this idea of yours for two reasons:

 

1) I never liked (although I was aware of it) the fact that there are important AC modifiers hidden to the player.

 

2) The physical resistance makes more sense than the AC modifier.

 

What I do not like instead:

 

1) The Bonus/Penalty against specific type of weapon is an original and nice idea. Your component would remove it to take its place.

 

2) There are armors that give physical resistance bonus as a special quality. Introducing this change will make that a less interesting feat.

 

Said that, to evaluate the bonuses you proposed, I propose an easy math calculation to see if something can be improved.

 

Leather armor total resistance: 0% (original trade-off +4 penalty)

Studded leather armor total resistance: 5% (original trade-off -4 bonus)

Hide armor total resistance: 15% (original trade-off +4 penalty)

Chain mail armor total resistance: 25% (original trade-off 0)

Splint mail armor total resistance: 25% (original trade-off -4 bonus)

Plate mail armor total resistance: 30% (original trade-off -3 bonus)

Full plate mail armor total resistance: 50% (original trade-off -10 bonus)

 

Checking the data above, I can see that you have not really "converted" the old values into physical resistance but instead decided for all new values.

 

And I agree completely to the fact that the old table was giving strange trade-off (trade-off meaning sum of bonuses and penalties for a specific armor).

 

Example: in the old table the Hide armor had a trade-off factor as bad as the leather amor and the studded leather armour had the same trade-off factor as the splint mail and better than plate mail (!).

 

I don't have the knowledge to say if the values you are suggesting are the best so I let others comment on that.

 

What I can say is that personally, rather than changing to your system, I would love to see the "old" table revisited and be mentioned in the STATISTICS: section of each armor.

 

Example:

 

Leather Armor

 

Basic armor made of thick, wax or water-hardened leather. It is sturdy protection, not supple like boots or a cloak. Soft garment leathers like that would offer no more protection than common clothing.

 

STATISTICS:

 

Armor Class: 8

Armor Class modifier vs Slashing: -2

Armor Class modifier vs Piercing: -2

Weight: 15

Requires: 4 Strength

Not Usable By:

Mage

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Personally I like this idea of yours for two reasons:

 

1) I never liked (although I was aware of it) the fact that there are important AC modifiers hidden to the player.

 

2) The physical resistance makes more sense than the AC modifier.

Good. What we need though is someone with a good knowledge on armors to help us with the resistance values.

 

What I do not like instead:

 

1) The Bonus/Penalty against specific type of weapon is an original and nice idea. Your component would remove it to take its place.

 

2) There are armors that give physical resistance bonus as a special quality. Introducing this change will make that a less interesting feat.

1) Actually I'm trying to keep that aspect, but with resistances instead of AC modifiers.

 

2) I can remember two of them, anyway, those armor will simply be harder than common ones.

 

Checking the data above, I can see that you have not really "converted" the old values into physical resistance but instead decided for all new values.

 

And I agree completely to the fact that the old table was giving strange trade-off (trade-off meaning sum of bonuses and penalties for a specific armor).

Indeed I have not simply "converted" them, as I didn't liked them. For example Full Plate's -4 AC added to its base AC 1 was making a heavy armored warrior dodge attacks better than Neo in Matrix. I know AC can be seen not only as dodge bonus but also as "damage resistance" somehow, but adding an actual damage resistance instead of further AC seems a better solution to highlight it.

 

I would love to see the "old" table revisited and be mentioned in the STATISTICS: section of each armor.
We decided to not change them long time ago, as after discussing it we were unable to come up with a much better table than the original one. Adding a component which doesn't change much, without being sure it would be better than the original, seemed unappropriate.
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STATISTICS:

 

Armor Class: 8

Armor Class modifier vs Slashing: +2

Armor Class modifier vs Piercing: +2

As it's indeed penalty, so 8+2=10

 

You are perfectly right.

 

But I decided to adapt the "-" because the game considers "+" numbers in relation to AC as negative numbers.

 

Example: a Leather Armor +1 gives a final AC value that is one point better than the non-enchanted version so that the number is subtracted instead of added to AC.

 

AC= AC - (modifier)

 

just like THAC0.

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I am fully satisfied with your answers, Demivrgvs.

 

As usual... :)

 

I just regret of not being of any help here since I am not an expert about armors.

 

What I would like to say though is that I really hope to see the modifiers fairly listed under the STATISTICS: section of each armor. Let's not repeat Bioware's original mistake... :)

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I was working on something like that for nearly half of a year. Exactly it was a new combat system made on Infinity Engine. I lost it of course, but had a nice arena fights with gladiators. :) I was gathering informations from people who know much 'bout weaponry, and sometimes I was making some "tests". I will try to write an overall facts that I know and can claim that it's truth.

 

Slashing weapons are always best against people without armors/or having light, leather armors. Against chainmails they are still fine (you can cut trough the chain). But plate armors were deflecting most of blows.

 

Bludgeoing weapons deals not so big damages as slashing, but they have no problem with any armours. Leathers and chainmails aren't hard - so level of defence against them is near to 0. Plates aren't so easy, still (what in normal game is hard to being shown) heavy hammer could crush it and from bastion of defence create a trap of crushed iron. Ouch.

 

Piercing weapons are best against plate mails from all types. When you push a stilleto (known also as Mizerykordia, from word "mercy", mercy for nearly slayed knight in crushed armor) even into a breastplate it can go trough, because point of force is very small and it's focused. But wounds dealed with piercing weapons aren't so damaging as slashing.

 

Missle weapons are biggest problem. Crossbows were so killery and sick that in most of countries of medieval europe they were illegal thanks to pope. Just had to see what genuenian crossbowmans were doing with knighst in full plates. CRUSH. But for weak people crossbows were very slow to reload. In medieval europe there was one exeption of... polish knights, who could pull up string by bare hands. And claimed to see that not only polish scribes but also german, french and other. ;-) Try to find something 'bout Zawisza "the Black" (in polish "Czarny").

 

Bows were weaker about strenght, but when it's going about speed of shooting... just find note 'bout japanese and mongolian archers... WOW. :)

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Armor Class vs. Weapon Types (current behaviour)
Armor Missile
Chain Mail 0
Splint Mail -1
...

Physical Damage Resistance for Armors in IR (proposed change)
Armor Missile
Chain Mail 10%
Splint Mail 5%
That must be a mistake. :)

I would dare to say the Chain should have 0% while Split should have 10%... But other vice, the table seems OK. Unless you wish to put 15% to the Chain armors agains slash damage. :)

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Demi, before you start implementing damage resistance bonuses, I think you should give a thought to balance breaking other mods. Rendering highly resistant enemy invulnerable imo is to be avoided like a plague.

 

Btw, those hidden armor bonuses may be viewed in character's record page. And remember, that just like DEX and weapon styles the 'AC vs type' value doesn't count towards minAC=-20 limit. Meaning, you still can benefit from certain armor type even if your base AC is as low as -20. Small, but nice :)

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Very nice post Yarpen! Thanks.

 

Slashing weapons are always best against people without armors/or having light, leather armors. Against chainmails they are still fine (you can cut trough the chain). But plate armors were deflecting most of blows.
The former should be represented by slashing weapons generally having better damage output, which is true except long swords. The latter should be well represented by physical resistances, though by your statements we should remove a 5% from chain and add it to plint mail.

 

Bludgeoing weapons deals not so big damages as slashing, but they have no problem with any armours. Leathers and chainmails aren't hard - so level of defence against them is near to 0. Plates aren't so easy, still (what in normal game is hard to being shown) heavy hammer could crush it and from bastion of defence create a trap of crushed iron. Ouch.
I think the current solution should be more or less ok, except that most 1handed crushing weapons already does as much damage as most medium sized 1handed blades. Mike and I may have a suggested tweak (yes, we are introducing a lot of them sorry) to slightly rebalance slashing weapons compared to crushing ones (as speed factor probably isn't enough, and I suppose most players agree on this). I'll discuss it at the end of this post.

 

Piercing weapons are best against plate mails from all types. When you push a stilleto (known also as Mizerykordia, from word "mercy", mercy for nearly slayed knight in crushed armor) even into a breastplate it can go trough, because point of force is very small and it's focused. But wounds dealed with piercing weapons aren't so damaging as slashing.
The current system should be ok then.

 

Missle weapons are biggest problem. Crossbows were so killery and sick that in most of countries of medieval europe they were illegal thanks to pope. Just had to see what genuenian crossbowmans were doing with knighst in full plates. CRUSH. But for weak people crossbows were very slow to reload. In medieval europe there was one exeption of... polish knights, who could pull up string by bare hands. And claimed to see that not only polish scribes but also german, french and other. ;-) Try to find something 'bout Zawisza "the Black" (in polish "Czarny").

 

Bows were weaker about strenght, but when it's going about speed of shooting... just find note 'bout japanese and mongolian archers... WOW. :)

Here too IR should do a fine job:

- Xbow's quarrels deal 0-2 points of damage more than arrows, and Xbows now have a +1 to thac0 that should simulate a better penetration capability and aim. Should we add a +5% chance to score a critical hit too or make quarrels deal 1D10? It may be even better imo if we can make it so that quarrels are considered missiles when dealing with AC bonuses (from shields and special abilities) but with piercing damage instead of missile damage (to make them more effective than arrows against medium and heavy armors), I'll look into it.

- Arrows deal less damage, but Bows have +1apr which should be more than enough to simulate the "speed of shooting" you're talking about

 

Do you have figures for the Angheg Plate Mail?
What do you mean? If you mean to which category it would belong the answer is Plate Mail.

 

Based on this post I think I should slightly adjust Splint and Chain Mails, and I also think that Splint mails being so effective against crushing weapons was a mistake, probably it was intended for Banded Mail, which isn't present in BG.

 

Parrying System

As of now, my concern is that this component would shift the balance in favor of blunt weapons, and penalize slashing ones quite much against heavy armors. We have come up with a mini-component that may slightly rebalance it while making the whole system a little more interesting (and complicated :p ). Depending on which weapon the character is carring he may be more able to parry/block an incoming attack from another weapon (though missile attacks would be excluded for obvious reasons).

My proposed table for this would be:

  • +1 to AC for long sword, scimitar, katana and spear
  • +2 to AC for staffs (I know some people would really like this one in particular :) )

Alternatively I may suggest another solution (though with Mike we only discussed the previous one):

  • -1 to AC for crushing weapons (most of them are much heavier and slower than slashing weapons)
     
  • +1 to AC for staffs

We may even opt for a combination of the two...anyway I'd like to hear your opinions. As always I prefer to have a wide agreement unless some technical or balancing issue really prevents me from pleasing players.

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It may be even better imo if we can make it so that quarrels are considered missiles when dealing with AC bonuses (from shields and special abilities) but with piercing damage instead of missile damage (to make them more effective than arrows against medium and heavy armors), I'll look into it.
Change damage type in ext header. I'd also change throwing axes, spears and hammers to deal slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage instead of missile.

 

I know some people would really like this one in particular
Me :)

I think the first one is better, since two weapons aren't much worse than shield in melee combat, same for staff. But against missiles it sucks, I think, so no AC bonus vs missile. Against the thrown axes and they ilk, though, I believe there should be no penalty as theose are quite larger in size - one more reason to tweak them from missiles to slash/pierce/crush. But here we have an inconsistensy with the suggested tweak for quarrels...

 

I personally would consider giving the parry bonus to 2h swords as well. Don't look at Claymore series (whoever has seen it), the true claymore was about 5-6 lb, incredibly light and fast, and most of larger 2h swords were hardly heavier than 8 lb (if any, can't remember). Bad thing, it'd make twohanders even more powerful than they already are, so balance wise it may be not an option.

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When I was in Japan last April, I read that the reason that the Japanese never

developed Plate Armour was because composite bow development reached a high level very early in Japan. So while the battle of Agincourt was the turning point in

Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt (Plate Mail considered

useless at best when facing English longbowman), the Japanese knew about this

problem before investing in plate mail technology.

 

Yes, given that we don't have any anghegs handy, so we can check the physical and chemical properties of their armour, I think we can speculate all we like. But I suspect that angheg plates have different physical properties than metal. For one thing, I would expect them to crack rather than dent. Anghegs have lobster-like claws, and presumably they use them in attacking other anghegs, much as lobsters do. Thus evolution ought to favour angheg armour becoming better at protecting against piercing attacks. Do anghegs have any natural predators? Or are they some magician's experiment gone awry?

 

just thinking out loud,

Laura

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My friend Sorrow who also was/is an maniac of fighting systems did very nice thing. Fully working system which gave to 2H swords and flails +2 to thaco against heavy armors and +5 to xbows. As in original PnP (or it was "Battles and Tactics Options" ? ).

 

And huh, I've found my own fighting system notes, but in polish. I will rewrite two descriptions, maybe ideas can be useful for some alternatives.

 

Long sword

Damages: 2k5 slashing or 1k6 piercing

thaco: +1

Chance for instant kill: 5% (saving throw with -1 mod.)

Parrying: +2 to AC vs. slashing, +1 vs. piercing

Speed factor: 4

Take out time: 1s (short time of being unable to attack after taking out a weapon)

Additional:

Finesse (additional attack, no strenght damage mod. +5% to chance for critical strike against heavy armours but -2 to damages and thaco)

1% for breaking (if non-magic)

 

 

 

Flail

Damages: 2k8 blunt, +1k2 piercing

thaco: -2

Chance for instant kill: 10% (no save)

Parrying: -2 AC penalty

Speed factory: 10 (+1)

Take out time: 6s

Handling: -2 to dexterity

Additional:

2% to break

5% to knock down enemy for a round

slows fighter

 

Bah, old times.

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About armor physical resistances ... FYI I have such a mod at third beta release now. Probably will break if used with IR at the moment (double dex penalties killing people off), as I haven't tested that yet.

 

PM if you want to test and send feedback... :)

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