Protection from Normal Missiles - intermediate option?

[Hannibal_Rex]

First of all, let me say that I've been hoping for years a mod like SCS I & II would get made. Thanks for the great work David!

 

Here's my request, though: While I can completely understand you reasoning for buffing PfNM, I'm not entirely happy with it in it's current state. So I have one request, as well as one alternative suggestion.

 

1) An intermediate option where PfNM doesn't protect against +2 missiles, but works the same as your revised version, otherwise.

 

While +2 missiles aren't super-rare in BG1, unlike the +1, fire, ice and poison ones, they aren't in limitless supply either. You could stock up on them from shops, but you won't have that many of them in a casual playthrough, and as such, making them completely useless against PfNM seems a bit too much for me.

 

2) Alternatively, or additionally, instead of providing complete immunity against even magical missiles, how about changing PfNM so it also gives a non-trivial bonus to missile AC? Somewhere in the 5-10 range, or +1 per caster level, something like that.

 

This way, PfNM isn't completely useless against the player, but neither are missile weapons completely useless against enemy mages. You'd still have some chance of spell disruption, even if the bonus were so high you'd only hit on a natural 20.

[DavidW]

First of all, let me say that I've been hoping for years a mod like SCS I & II would get made. Thanks for the great work David!

 

Here's my request, though: While I can completely understand you reasoning for buffing PfNM, I'm not entirely happy with it in it's current state. So I have one request, as well as one alternative suggestion.

 

1) An intermediate option where PfNM doesn't protect against +2 missiles, but works the same as your revised version, otherwise.

 

While +2 missiles aren't super-rare in BG1, unlike the +1, fire, ice and poison ones, they aren't in limitless supply either. You could stock up on them from shops, but you won't have that many of them in a casual playthrough, and as such, making them completely useless against PfNM seems a bit too much for me.

 

2) Alternatively, or additionally, instead of providing complete immunity against even magical missiles, how about changing PfNM so it also gives a non-trivial bonus to missile AC? Somewhere in the 5-10 range, or +1 per caster level, something like that.

 

This way, PfNM isn't completely useless against the player, but neither are missile weapons completely useless against enemy mages. You'd still have some chance of spell disruption, even if the bonus were so high you'd only hit on a natural 20.

 

I could incorporate this fairly straightforwardly, if there's demand. Anyone else want it?

[coaster]

Both nice ideas which I'd be interested in playing with. On balance I'd prefer 2/, it fits in more with the BG1 "vibe" of having the Boots of Avoidance, Cloak of Displacement, Shield spell which boost missile AC etc (one question to be considered though - would it stack with other "armour" type spells?)

[Hannibal_Rex]

Good to see you're back again, David!

 

Both nice ideas which I'd be interested in playing with. On balance I'd prefer 2/, it fits in more with the BG1 "vibe" of having the Boots of Avoidance, Cloak of Displacement, Shield spell which boost missile AC etc (one question to be considered though - would it stack with other "armour" type spells?)

 

Yeah, a straight bonus to AC vs. missiles would stack with the baseline armor spells, (and the Shield missile AC bonus, I guess). PC mages would get even lower with all the anti-missile equipment available in BG1. Impervious to anything but a natural 20 wouldn't far off, in such a case. I'm not so fluent in 2nd Ed. AD&D that I know of the top of my mind what a balanced AC bonus would be. Personally, I like the idea that it improves with caster level best. Maybe not +1/lvl, but something in the ballpark. How high level do enemy mages get in BG1?

 

Option 1 would be quite a nerf of NPC mages, assuming the player goes out of his way to keep a supply of +2 missiles against mages. Still, it's a bit more 'puristic' than either the current change, or option 2, and also allows for the use of crossbows and slings, while otherwise only special arrows can penetrate the tweaked PfNM.

 

Option 2 only came to me when I was writing the post. It has the advantage that PC mages will be nerfed alongside NPCs. If it's used in addition to option 1, PC mages would remain impervious, while NPCs would be nerfed less. Alone, it is probably a more balanced choice than either the vanilla BG1 spell, the current tweak, or my first suggestion.

[Demivrgvs]

I would vote for option 1), as it's what I'd like to implement for SR too.

 

Something like immunity to normal arrows at 5th, +1 arrows at 10th, +2 at 15th and +3 at 20th (which means immunity to all ammos except Gesen and Firetooth's ones).

 

If we want to be fair to the AI, which doesn't have neither Gesen nor Firetooth, and you'd like to keep some effectiveness at low levels I would go instead with something like immunity to +1 arrows at 5th, +2 at 10th and +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th. Additionally a 20th level caster may be protected by magically created arrows like Flame Arrow and Melf's Acid Arrow.

 

Anyway, the most important question is, how would you do that? By replacing all ammo's .pro files with custom one? As of now all enhancement bonuses share the very same .pro making this tweak impossible.

[Galactygon]

IIRC, Protection from Normal Missiles in AD&D reduces the damage suffered from magical missiles instead of eliminating them entirely.

 

-Galactygon

[Salk]

Personally I like better option 2 (not as addition to option 1).

[BigRob]

IIRC, Protection from Normal Missiles in AD&D reduces the damage suffered from magical missiles instead of eliminating them entirely.

 

Yup, checked the PHB and the spell removes -1 from each die of damage that magical or large missiles do to the protected individual. Seems this could be a good way to do it (assuming it's possible at all), and perhaps up the amount of damage reduction for higher level mages, if this is deemed appropriate.

 

 

Option 2 would seem a nice equivalent if damage reduction couldn't be achieved.

[DavidW]

OK, I'm increasingly starting to think this is something I should leave to mods like SR...

[Demivrgvs]

OK, I'm increasingly starting to think this is something I should leave to mods like SR...

Which solution would you prefer though? I'm trying to figure out which one would be better:

 

1) immunity to normal missile + 5% missile damage resistance every 5 levels?

2) immunity to normal missile + 1AC vs. missile every 5 levels?

3) immunity to magical and normal missile (as per SCS and SR)

 

1) the most similar to PnP. It may be exploited with AoF, Hardiness and the like, but a workaround to it may be possible (e.g. non stackable)

2) the easiest to implement, though the less "unique" too imo as AC is granted by many spells

3) the hardest to implement by far if we decide to make it scalable, and the most powerful one

 

I'm not too biased on this matter, I just think vanilla's spell is really too weak to appealing for a 3rd level spell, thus at least on of these options has to be included in SR imo.

[DavidW]

OK, I'm increasingly starting to think this is something I should leave to mods like SR...

Which solution would you prefer though?

 

To be honest I think I like the simplicity of the OP's suggestion: immunity to normal and +1 arrows but not +2 and up.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Which solution would you prefer though?

This:

Something like immunity to normal arrows at 5th, +1 arrows at 10th, +2 at 15th and +3 at 20th (which means immunity to all ammos except Gesen and Firetooth's ones).

PS, the last(20th level) would also let the Arrows of Piercing do their damage, as they are +4 arrows -kinda. And if that is impossible with only with SR, then put the IR's part to the mix too(each mod doing it's own part so the end result will work).

[Salk]

I like the P&P version:

 

"Immunity to normal missile + 5% missile damage resistance every 5 level"

 

and the:

 

"Immunity to normal arrows at 5th, +1 arrows at 10th, +2 at 15th and +3 at 20th "

 

suggestion.

 

I never liked the complete protection for both magical and non magical missiles.

[lac]

I like the P&P version:

 

"Immunity to normal missile + 5% missile damage resistance every 5 level"

 

and the:

 

"Immunity to normal arrows at 5th, +1 arrows at 10th, +2 at 15th and +3 at 20th "

 

suggestion.

 

I never liked the complete protection for both magical and non magical missiles.

 

Those are the ones I like, too.

[lac]

How will these proposed changes effect those non-arrow&bullet missile weapons, returning knives and the like?