Mages and Pierce Magic

[culmore]

Got it. Thanks again Icen.

 

Separate thread really but to me the spell system in bg2 (I think AD&D 2e) etc is more interesting/complex/fun than that used in Neverwinter nights (D&D 3/3.5??). Do many people feel that way also? Certainly the wizard spell, maybe not so much the priest spells.

 

I was looking for a thread on this but could not find one.

[Guest amanasleep]

Got it. Thanks again Icen.

 

Separate thread really but to me the spell system in bg2 (I think AD&D 2e) etc is more interesting/complex/fun than that used in Neverwinter nights (D&D 3/3.5??). Do many people feel that way also? Certainly the wizard spell, maybe not so much the priest spells.

 

I was looking for a thread on this but could not find one.

 

The BG2 spell system (AD&D 2.5 approximately with some differences) is incredibly strategic and fun, and SCS2 really improves the AI to add a lot of challenge. For instance, the standard use of GoI by enemy mages makes them very tough before you have access to 6th level Arcane spells (or Insect Plague...).

 

It also puts the teeth back in anti-magic spells and spell defenses, since in vanilla BG2 you could get around almost any defenses with some combination of True Seeing, Breach, and area damage. The standard use of GoI and SI:D changes all that.

 

I am interested that Mages in SCS2 still do not respond well to Nishruu. The appropriate response should be Death Spell/ and/or fighting summons, but they usually still just cast spells at it. Even a solo PC mage would have an easy time vs a Nishruu summoned by NPC mages (although if you are unprepared it really could be game over--but even a wand of Monster Summoning can deal with Nishruu for teh cost of a single charge).

 

I believe that SCS2 would be improved significantly by having all NPC mages memorize at least one Death Spell, if not more (high level casters should be able to cast it multiple times), and summon more creatures for the PC party to deal with. This would neutralize one of the biggest PC advantages left over SCS2's excellent AI: the ability to intelligently use powerful summons to get past enemy advantages.

[culmore]

The BG2 spell system (AD&D 2.5 approximately with some differences) is incredibly strategic and fun, and SCS2 really improves the AI to add a lot of challenge. For instance, the standard use of GoI by enemy mages makes them very tough before you have access to 6th level Arcane spells (or Insect Plague...).

 

It also puts the teeth back in anti-magic spells and spell defenses, since in vanilla BG2 you could get around almost any defenses with some combination of True Seeing, Breach, and area damage. The standard use of GoI and SI:D changes all that.

 

I am interested that Mages in SCS2 still do not respond well to Nishruu. The appropriate response should be Death Spell/ and/or fighting summons, but they usually still just cast spells at it. Even a solo PC mage would have an easy time vs a Nishruu summoned by NPC mages (although if you are unprepared it really could be game over--but even a wand of Monster Summoning can deal with Nishruu for teh cost of a single charge).

 

I believe that SCS2 would be improved significantly by having all NPC mages memorize at least one Death Spell, if not more (high level casters should be able to cast it multiple times), and summon more creatures for the PC party to deal with. This would neutralize one of the biggest PC advantages left over SCS2's excellent AI: the ability to intelligently use powerful summons to get past enemy advantages.

 

Interesting/very good points. But I'd be back to my original problem if "AI mages" dealt immediately with Nishru's. Also if the AI just cast death spell the round after the player summoned the Nishruu it would effectively be not worth summoning the Nishru at all. And since the AI mages have more spell than the player it would be a useless summons (and a net loss to the player). Maybe if there was a way for the "AI mage" to cast death spell say two/three/four/five/six rounds later. That would still make it worth while for the player and not a total disaster for the AI mage. Lets say 2d3 rounds later??

 

Before scs2 I regarded summoning as making the game too easy and never used them (well apart from the odd Mord sword). But now... So I feel the fact that I am having to resort to using them indicates a good job by scs2.

 

Personally I feel insect plague is very over powered, land that spell and you are the winner. Well at least that was the case in the unmoded game. I don't have anyone in my party who can cast it with the scs2 changes.

[Icendoan]

Well, the problem with Death Fog is that it kills ALL summons. No exceptions, not even Haekeshar.

 

Icen

[Guest amanasleep]

Well, the problem with Death Fog is that it kills ALL summons. No exceptions, not even Haekeshar.

 

Icen

 

Not certain I understand. Both Death Spell and Death Fog kill all summons, but Death Spell is party friendly. Why is this a problem, and who is it a problem for? I am advocating that the AI should use Death Spell more whenever the PC uses summons, because it is the abviosu counter to them and summons are powerful. Some creatures are scripted to use Death Spells, but most enemies who are capable of casting Level 6 arcane spells do not cast it, which seems odd. As a scripting problem, I can't see that it should be difficult to add.

 

In any event, I love SCS2, and as culmore points out, it is the excellence of SCS2 spell use and general AI that forces him to summon a Nishruu. But since there is a simple, non-cheating way for the AI to deal with Nishruu I think it should be in the game.

 

@culmore: Even if the AI Death Spell kills your Nishruu, there is a very easy way around this. Send other summons to force his Death Spell(s), then cast Nishruu and/or have 2 Nishruus memorized.

 

Insect Plague remains very good in SCS2, but does not guarantee victory. It stops the enemy mage from casting for 6 rounds and does 18 damage, but it doesn't get rid of their protections or keep them from using sequencers or contingencies to renew their protections. However, it usually stops lower level mages from casting PfMW outright (Because they need to be 18th level to cast it from Contingency), which is a big advantage. Later on they just Chain Contingency 3x Horrid Wilting, etc.

[Guest amanasleep]

Interesting/very good points. But I'd be back to my original problem if "AI mages" dealt immediately with Nishru's. Also if the AI just cast death spell the round after the player summoned the Nishruu it would effectively be not worth summoning the Nishru at all. And since the AI mages have more spell than the player it would be a useless summons (and a net loss to the player). Maybe if there was a way for the "AI mage" to cast death spell say two/three/four/five/six rounds later. That would still make it worth while for the player and not a total disaster for the AI mage. Lets say 2d3 rounds later??

 

But I already posted the solution to the original problem. The whole point of SCS2 is for the AI to act intelligently. How "intelligent" is it for Nishruu to be auto-win vs. all spellcasters? Especially since Death Spell gets rid of them easily?

 

I think it's reasonable for high level spellcasters to always have Death Spell to deal with summons, and they should always cast their own summons, too (to force the player to deal with the same thing). They don't even have to cast death spell to deal with Nishruu. Skeleton warrior or Invisible stalker or Monster Summoning 2 even would beat the tar out of a Nishruu.

 

I've always wanted enemy mages to do cool stuff like cast Webs and Spider Spawns at the party. Since they all start the battle with GoI this would be totally devastating. I don't get to do this tactic with a party until I can cast Limited Wish and get my mass minor globes going.

[Icendoan]

Well, what was said is that SCSII Mages should cast Death Fog and use summons, which is inevitably pointless.

 

Icen

[culmore]

But I already posted the solution to the original problem.

 

No really. Well not when I try it. My mage only has 2 pierce magic spell. Constar can cast spell turning many times. So I'd don't manage to get his globe down as he counter my piece magic with another spell turning. Smart AI that. I can use cheese to win, run away, shut the door, and wait for the GoI to drop. But that is not really winning imo.

 

 

The whole point of SCS2 is for the AI to act intelligently. How "intelligent" is it for Nishruu to be auto-win vs. all spellcasters? Especially since Death Spell gets rid of them easily?

 

I think this is true the Nishruu makes the fight v Constar an auto win pretty much. Not a hard fight now. Suneer and the mage in the sewer are not auto win. The mage in the sewer has lots of buddies as does Suneer.

 

 

I think it's reasonable for high level spell casters to always have Death Spell to deal with summons,

 

I think it is a good idea too. As long as it does not make the casting of the Nishruu totally pointless.

 

 

and they should always cast their own summons, too (to force the player to deal with the same thing). They don't even have to cast death spell to deal with Nishruu. Skeleton warrior or Invisible stalker or Monster Summoning 2 even would beat the tar out of a Nishruu.

 

Constar and other mages summon lots of things in my experience (Mord swords, demons....). But I have not yet see the summon target the Nishruu.

 

 

Well, what was said is that SCSII Mages should cast Death Fog and use summons, which is inevitably pointless.

 

True that! Pointless for the AI to cast both at the same time.

[culmore]

I tried a Nishruu versus the element lich. The Nishruu made the fight easy.

 

But Kangaxx was a different story he attacked the Nishruu as his first target!!! (well more or less). His first form killed two Nishruu's. I managed to killed the first form with only the Nishruu no pierce shield but the second from was a different matter. Five Nishruu's did not make this fight an auto win when I tried it. Dunno what is different about Kangaxx and why he went for the Nishruu right away. In fact I thought his behavior was very fair. It took him a while to kill the Nishruu's it was not instant death for the Nishruu.

 

When I tried with a Hakeashar the fight was still not an auto win either. I beat the first form without using pierce shield. But again lost to the second form. This time Kangaxx did not attack the summoned Hakeashar. But it was unsummoned during the fight so I had to summon a second one.

 

I even tried with three Hakeashar's and again it was not an auto win. And he cast the death spell at one point!

 

Also my party was protected from evil (it was not dispelled) when these mages summon a demon, the demon still attacks me. Why is that?

[Guest amanasleep]

Well, what was said is that SCSII Mages should cast Death Fog and use summons, which is inevitably pointless.

 

Icen

 

No. I said they should use Death Spell and use summons. That is a big difference. Death Fog kills all summons, Death Spell kills only enemies.

 

I have not mentioned Death Fog in this thread. In fact, you are the one who brought up the subject and suggested combining summons and Death Fog. What gives?

 

A death fog might work, however. (also 6th level). Try summoning an elemental, also. I think Nishruu are 6th level. Pretty sure Hakeashar are 7th. Hmmm. If you can cast Nishruu, you are fine. Send it in alone against the Mage.

 

Icen

[Guest amanasleep]

No really. Well not when I try it. My mage only has 2 pierce magic spell. Constar can cast spell turning many times. So I'd don't manage to get his globe down as he counter my piece magic with another spell turning. Smart AI that. I can use cheese to win, run away, shut the door, and wait for the GoI to drop. But that is not really winning imo.

 

It doesn't matter how many times he casts Spell Turning. All you need to get rid of is GoI. After the GoI drops he doesn't recast it again, so you can dispel any remaining protections with Secret Word. Just memorize lots of Secret Words. Four should do it.

 

Are you saying he recasts Spell Turning before you cast your second Pierce Magic? Because if he doesn't, the second Pierce Magic will dispel GoI. Once that's down Secret Word will dispel anything he casts.

 

I think this is true the Nishruu makes the fight v Constar an auto win pretty much. Not a hard fight now. Suneer and the mage in the sewer are not auto win. The mage in the sewer has lots of buddies as does Suneer.

 

Yeah, Nishruu has always been auto-win vs. lower level mages, especially lone mages. Against mages with non-summoned allies, this is not true of course. A single fighter will just hack the Nishruu to pieces.

 

I think it is a good idea too. As long as it does not make the casting of the Nishruu totally pointless.

 

It won't. It just means that you must be more strategic. You must assume that the mage has Death Spell ready and cast other summons to try and draw it out. Then cast Nishruu.

 

Constar and other mages summon lots of things in my experience (Mord swords, demons....). But I have not yet see the summon target the Nishruu.

 

I have to admit this is true--SCS2 mages do summon lots more creatures than they used to in vanilla. It's weird that the summons won't target the Nishruu though. I wonder if that's something that can be fixed (by making the Nishruu/Hakeshar the highest priority target for non-magic using enemies). It may be that this scripting already exists for non-summoned enemies, but summoned enemies "didn't get the memo" as it were.

 

Well, what was said is that SCSII Mages should cast Death Fog and use summons, which is inevitably pointless.

 

True that! Pointless for the AI to cast both at the same time.

 

Death Spell!!!!!

 

I never brought up Death Fog in the first place. Jeez!

 

[Guest amanasleep]

I tried a Nishruu versus the element lich. The Nishruu made the fight easy.

 

But Kangaxx was a different story he attacked the Nishruu as his first target!!! (well more or less). His first form killed two Nishruu's. I managed to killed the first form with only the Nishruu no pierce shield but the second from was a different matter. Five Nishruu's did not make this fight an auto win when I tried it. Dunno what is different about Kangaxx and why he went for the Nishruu right away. In fact I thought his behavior was very fair. It took him a while to kill the Nishruu's it was not instant death for the Nishruu.

 

When I tried with a Hakeashar the fight was still not an auto win either. I beat the first form without using pierce shield. But again lost to the second form. This time Kangaxx did not attack the summoned Hakeashar. But it was unsummoned during the fight so I had to summon a second one.

 

I even tried with three Hakeashar's and again it was not an auto win. And he cast the death spell at one point!

 

It's good to know that the higher level casters have been scripted appropriately.

 

Also my party was protected from evil (it was not dispelled) when these mages summon a demon, the demon still attacks me. Why is that?

 

There is a component in SCS2 that makes it so that Protection from Evil only prevents Demons that you summon from attacking you. Demons summoned by enemy spellcasters will now target party members even if they are protected from Evil.

 

The gameplay balance reasoning for this is that it's too easy for the party to ignore enemy summoned demons in vanilla just by casting a single 4th level spell. They are supposed to be dangerous!

 

The roleplaying reasoning is that high level evil spellcasters are assumed to have a pre-existing pact with the summoned demon, which causes it not to be restricted by the normal prohibitions.

 

I like it. It provides a good challenge and makes demon summoning scary again.

[Icendoan]

My suggestions are always to be taken as OR unless specified.

 

I probably misread you, it is silly to argue over this though.

 

Try layering Incendiary Cloud with Death Fog and Cloudkill, and then Invisibility 10' Radius, and wait for them to all to die.

 

Icen

[culmore]

 

Are you saying he recasts Spell Turning before you cast your second Pierce Magic? Because if he doesn't, the second Pierce Magic will dispel GoI. Once that's down Secret Word will dispel anything he casts.

 

 

I have gotten what you are saying to work some of the time but not always. The GoI is pretty obvious and it is not always down after the first two piece magic casts (even when I make certain Keldorn's true seeing is running). Conster really moves around a lot and quickly. This is okay when he is summoning but when he is casting Magic missiles or some other fast casting spell then my cast of Pierce Magic is often wasted because he has move before the Pierce Magic is cast. The animation on the screen shows the Pierce magic striking the GoI but there is no "Spell protections removed " message. I can try some more later. But this could be the real problem his fast movement between casting causing me to waste my spells.

 

Will try again later and confirm.

[Guest amanasleep]

My suggestions are always to be taken as OR unless specified.

 

I probably misread you, it is silly to argue over this though.

 

Try layering Incendiary Cloud with Death Fog and Cloudkill, and then Invisibility 10' Radius, and wait for them to all to die.

 

Icen

 

No worries. My suggestions are always to be taken as what I actually wrote unless specified.

 

Multiple stationary area damage is always fun, but I believe SCS2 will often prompt creatures to move out of areas that damage them, especially if they have no targets.

 

Plus, if you are high enough level to cast Incendiary Cloud I daresay poor Conster is no longer a threat, but even with all three of those going, I suspect Conster's Pro Elements, Fire, and Acid spells will protect him from most of the damage, and leave him alive and kicking by the end (although this might buy you time to outlast the combat protections while killing his non-gated summons). And if he has SI: Evocation going he will take zero damage and won't even have his spells disrupted. So I wouldn't stake my no-reload challenge on this working.