Do you like Early Firearms in fantasy games?

[Domi]

Elves? Balrogs? Heck, Sauron?

 

I am no historian, but just from the feel of the setting, I'd think Bakker's Prince of Nothing is the closest to capturing what feels like the medieval feel to me. But I really wouldn't want to play in that setting.

 

No, not steampunk, though the only thing I know about steampunk is that Arcanum is it. I just want something lighter, brighter and more frivolous than the Middle Ages, with a more querying mindset.

[cmorgan]

Domi, I don't think there will be significant resistance *if* there is a compelling reason for firearms to have been developed to a grat extent.

 

Let's take FR.

 

Why develop gunpowder as anything other than a fun toy when magic can provide flashstones, wands, and triggered traps that give you the rapid fire and precise kill that is equivalent to 19th to 20th C tech, in 1200? As a Champion of Torm, leading forces into battle, why would I risk new technology when I can have a platoon of apprentice magi do far more, with more flexibility - the first time I see a firearm used on the field, I simply do what you always do with fire, and quench it by magical means, which means that the years of development, transport, and training of a gunpowder trooper is only good for one volley in one battle once. Then the cannon or handguns are targetted by rapid fire crossbows, elven longbows, wands of magic missle, chain lightning, fireball, the trained gryphon core, the trolls and giants hurling boulders, the dragons...

 

The truth for FR is that there is very little in the way of justifying the Gondian experiments being built into true weaponry. Jan is cute, but really - gunpowder-based crossbow rounds are a waste of time when a spell can be placed that sharpens and hardens a bolt to magically dense +5 rounds and given frost and fire capabilities. Heck, *modern* weapons specialists would love a duranium round that explodes inside the target and does either heat or cold transfer, with a guidance system that can literally turn in mid air (a 1st level character firing a +5 round, you gotta believe that magical bous is the round saying "great. A recruit. Why do I always get the new ones?" and doing a 90 degree turn to hit its intended target) - and here is the real kicker.... *with no gain in weight*. Why develop refrigeration to a great extent, or electricity, when both natural and magical means exist and do not consume resources or expire quickly?

 

Now, the cool stuff out there that mixes tech and alternative development, like lots of SF by Turtledove and stuff like ShadowRun, Arcanum, etc. create a backstory that makes it possible for those forces to exist. In FR or Morrowind terms, sections of the world where magic won't work means developing tools that mean your enemy can't run into a null spot and hide, making you toothless. So I wouldn't think it was a waste of time to add early gunpowder tech if it was fulfilling a need that the setting would demand be filled.

 

To take the counter-argument on the FR setting, I always thought FR would work very hard at both sea and air weapons technology, including dropped incendiary devices and automatic weaponry to fire netting or cannisters of shot into the various things that have no good counters:

 

"Aye, that there is a dragon. Great. Four Airships, two leagues out... we're dead, Anair. No way we can fire a fireball an' harm her, she's a Red. She moves faster than we can, an' this platform jumpin' around won't allow much besides th' wands to work. No spellcaster's gonna be able to concentrate long enough for th' bloody Breach spell, let alone if she comes in wi' fire. We should ditch now, an' swim for it."

 

"Now, Aran, relax. You always see the worst. This is the perfect time to try my new invention - I call it Arrows Enchanted Generally In Series, but let's just shorten that to AEGIS. The Dragon's fear weapon is useless, because no matter how far her effect reaches, if she comes within breath weapon range the enchantment on this set of tubes triggers, and about 400 arrows fire sequentially. The demon enchanted to serve has great eyesight, and is very anxious to get home. The secondary defense is a simple enchantment that detects the presence of something within the correct radius, triggering these crossbow +5 bolts, and are supplemented by the release of a set of summoned air elementals, but that is the last resort - before that, we have these catapults right here. The Dragon may have a number of spells up, and might get off the first Breach and Dispell Magic, rendering most of this useless. So here is the new baby... see those big jars? They are filled with an old Dwarven invention used to break through rock, called "gunpowder". I filled the vases with +3 and +4 sling ammunition, and set a length of candle taper infused with oil. I was going to drop them behind the Orc lines when we were in battle, and blow the crap out of their Shamen, but tough times call for tough measures. We light the fuse, like so... yes, that's it... now we use this crossbow to launch it way away from us...

 

 

... ok, that missed. But now we have the range, and she sure didn't like the fact that we were spitting at her...

 

YES!

 

Well, that slowed her down a bit.

 

Ok, now let's try this new cool toy I have right here. Take this tube and put it over your shoulder, and aim it at her, looking through this secondary tube to aim. Yep, that is just right. Now, hold still why I light this smaller tube, and we will see if that Gondian Gnome was right about fast burning gunpowder compressed into a tube. He called it a "Rocket", I think..."

 

"You spent too much time in that gnomish village, laddie. I think next time, I'll avoid all this an' travel with th' ships."

 

 

It could work...

[Ardanis]

Well, the question can be reversed as "do you like high-tech swords in sci-fi settings?"

 

I definitely do, and can't really see anylonger one of the key characters in my game project without her twin broadbladed flashies. Despite the fact that one can use a shotgun, a mental power or a powerful discharger at the closer range to the similar end effect.

 

Same goes for fantasy guns. It may seem unfitting, but given a good background may fit just perfectly. It's all a matter of design, imo.

[Sorrow]

Let's take FR.

 

Why develop gunpowder as anything other than a fun toy when magic can provide flashstones, wands, and triggered traps that give you the rapid fire and precise kill that is equivalent to 19th to 20th C tech, in 1200? As a Champion of Torm, leading forces into battle, why would I risk new technology when I can have a platoon of apprentice magi do far more, with more flexibility - the first time I see a firearm used on the field, I simply do what you always do with fire, and quench it by magical means, which means that the years of development, transport, and training of a gunpowder trooper is only good for one volley in one battle once. Then the cannon or handguns are targetted by rapid fire crossbows, elven longbows, wands of magic missle, chain lightning, fireball, the trained gryphon core, the trolls and giants hurling boulders, the dragons...

1. You have to have rare specialists that require long years of training to do magic.

2. Handgonne troopers don't need long training. Also, I doubt those rare magic users can disable 500 handgunners spread in pike squares while at the same time facing other magic users.

 

Also, magic isn't really so ubiquitous - it's not technology - most of people can't afford magic and only one 1 person per 100 has a magical talent needed to become a wizard or sorcerer. Even most of clergy doesn't have magical abilities.

 

As for the FR and smoke powder - FR wasn't flooded with handgonnes only because wizards are so scared of them that they fight against anyone who builds/imports them and blow up every storage of smoke powder they find in attempt to slow down the progress.

 

Elves? Balrogs? Heck, Sauron?

 

Icen

I was talking about tech level .http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=16070&st=0#

Complete Edit

 

Also, Tolkien was strongly inspired by mythology and old works like Beowulf. It's worth remembering that he was a scholar as much as a writer.

 

 

No, not steampunk, though the only thing I know about steampunk is that Arcanum is it. I just want something lighter, brighter and more frivolous than the Middle Ages, with a more querying mindset.

Speaking of Arcanum - it handled firearms pretty horribly - it had only one type for very different firearms, no need to load weapons, etc.

Generally crossbows should be slower to prepare to fire than bows and firearms should be even slower to prepare to fire than crossbows which would give bows fast rate of fire to bows, slow to crossbows and very very slow to handgonnes.

[Domi]

The truth for FR is that there is very little in the way of justifying the Gondian experiments being built into true weaponry. Jan is cute, but really - gunpowder-based crossbow rounds are a waste of time when a spell can be placed that sharpens and hardens a bolt to magically dense +5 rounds and given frost and fire capabilities.

 

Magic really shouldn't be as cheap as it is in FR. It's one of the problems with the setting that so many people their show above average intelligence and can apprentice and have access to the pricey scrolls and apprentenships. Gunpowder as more of an artizan skill feel more natural 'for all' commodity to me than the arcaine. But that's just me.

 

Anyway, I do not want to put an emphasis on the OMG, my worlsd has FIREPOWDER!!!! I just want it to be organic so the setting feels within the right time-frame for the ideas and ideals.

[Sorrow]

Anyway, I do not want to put an emphasis on the OMG, my worlsd has FIREPOWDER!!!! I just want it to be organic so the setting feels within the right time-frame for the ideas and ideals.

Well, late medieval and renaissance had firearms and some social changes like decline of knighthood and strengthening of stet was caused by them, so it would be a good base for such a fantasy world.

[Ardanis]

In fact, the powder was invented in China long before Renaissance or even Middle Age, though it's probably well known to the most. And before the wide use of firearms there was a crossbow, conceptually the very same thing. Xbows are common in FR, so...

[Domi]

Yes, that's one thing I will be doing, making a cross-bow more prevalent than a bow in the setting, as well as the polearms weapons Sorrow mentioned. I don't know if I would be able to customise the prefabs for the firearms available off the Vault, but I will be trying to give them damaging power, but make them slower than cross-bows.

[nurgles_herald]

I am of the opinion that most RPGs are not, in any way, enhanced by the inclusion of firearms. Final Fantasy started to lose me in VI; I know VII has a great plot and all that, but the fact of the matter is that people have guns, yet they continued to use swords. Including early guns is all right, so long as we take an inquisitorial stance towards firearms- if it gets even remotely out of hand, we must report said heresies to the local authorities, so that the offending beasts may be burned to death.

[Domi]

Uhm, I am sorry, I don't get what you are trying to say, to be honest.

[Sorrow]

I am of the opinion that most RPGs are not, in any way, enhanced by the inclusion of firearms. Final Fantasy started to lose me in VI; I know VII has a great plot and all that, but the fact of the matter is that people have guns, yet they continued to use swords.

Firearms were used along swords and polearms for a long time. They were used since late medieval and one of the first successful mass uses was during Hussite Wars (1419-1434), so it's not long after full plate armour appeared.

 

Also, I don't know a single cRPG game that had correct early firearms.