Items re-allocation

[Ardanis]

Alright, from roleplaying point of view I think:

- SoW is fine where it is, in Ust Natha

- Backbiter must be somewhere in early SoA, preferably a fence - guess nobody has yet tried to sell us a cursed item

- Impaler should be in Kuo-Toa prince's possession, as a harpoon

 

Taking into account J Beau's concern:

- SoW belongs to Kuo-Toa

- Impaler is either sold in sahuagin city (they don't mind offering it as reward anyway iirc)

- Backbiter is sold by one of those cutpurses around Athkatla

[J Beau]

If you are set on keeping both spears so close together, then SoW needs something more. (And I wonder how many of the people who are so set on this have ever chosen spears as their main characters main weapon.) Even fully enchanted Ixil +5 doesn't compare to Impaler and Impaler is a missile weapon as well now!! The anti-stone skin ability is just not too helpful. When you do run into mages at this stage, its PfMW you have to deal with. I know I seem to be harping on this; but from my understanding, one of THE main purposes of this mod is to make non traditionally used items more attractive to players (spears, staffs, daggers, halberds). Remember I can get the sword of chaos in just a few minutes of play and Lilarcor right out Chateau Irenicus. So why should I pick spears or halberds?

[SixOfSpades]

If you are set on keeping both spears so close together,

Actually, that's what we're trying NOT to do. I just feel that both Sahuagin and Kou-Toa are so mated with Spears (harpoons, javelins) that it would be wrong to try to give them anything else. Yeah, IR could always give them a plain Spear+2 or +3 in place of Impaler (or an unenchanted Spear with Grease animation), but frankly I don't find that terribly appealing . . . and when everyone else wants the Spear of Withering to stay right where it is, well, then we're stuck with this big pile of Spears right in the middle of Chapters 4-5.

 

Even fully enchanted Ixil +5 doesn't compare to Impaler and Impaler is a missile weapon as well now!!

Bumping Impaler down to a +2 enchantment and making it available in Chapters 2-3 might go a long way toward easing the "Spear hump" without unbalancing anything. You can't hit Bodhi with it, but you really should be using a Shield against her anyway.

[J Beau]

Its funny nobody mentions the long history of spear use by those incredibly horrible and deadly monsters... humans.

[Ardanis]

Humans used spears and swords, not just one.

 

If you are set on keeping both spears so close together

I'm not, because you were absolutely right about "UD is full of +3 spears".

But part of the problem is that BG is oversaturated with artifacts. There's just no space left for SoW in pre-UD, imo. All optional bosses (dragons, liches, etc.) already have powerful items in their possession (Celestial Fury, Carsomyr, Staff of Magi, Ring of Gaxx, dragon scales).

The only viable place is Planar Sphere, but it too offers a pretty good selection of loot.

 

Even fully enchanted Ixil +5 doesn't compare to Impaler and Impaler is a missile weapon as well now!!

For balance reasons Impaler's +10 was turned into 1d8 iirc. So in fact SoW is not so far behind.

 

Remember I can get the sword of chaos in just a few minutes of play and Lilarcor right out Chateau Irenicus. So why should I pick spears or halberds?

Lilarcor remains +3 only until IR v4. Spears have a reach of 3 (and two are throwable) and usable by druids, while halberds can slash/pierce.

 

After Halcyon/Talos Fury was made +2, I dare think that's already a fine reason to pick spears, no?

[Demivrgvs]

Spear of Withering

Whether or not it fits canon lore for the Drow to have the Spear of Withering, I feel it would match the Sahuagin even better. I would move the SoW to the King & Prince of the Underwater City, and bump the Impaler to the closest thing to an Orc chieftain that we have: DigDag.

Let's say SoW can fit both drows and sahuagin's king/prince, and it fits the latters more than Impaler does imo.

 

Backbiter

The Kou-Toa Prince actually might not even mind using Backbiter, as his regeneration makes the damage negligible. (Riti shouldn't even be using a Spear anyway, as the Githyanki animation can only show a 2-Handed Sword.)

As I said, Backbiter is the perfect candidate to be moved early within SoA because of its cursed state and its drawback.

 

I'd avoid making it sold by some fence though, it would have a laughable cost being cursed or I doubt anyone would buy it. It could instead be moved to a decent opponent imo, and I could even re-work on it a little to make its drawback not affect its owner (for example I could consider it a bleeding effect or something like that and make it not affect an undead). Else, just put it somewhere as a classic cursed loot.

 

Impaler

Bumping Impaler down to a +2 enchantment and making it available in Chapters 2-3 might go a long way toward easing the "Spear hump" without unbalancing anything. You can't hit Bodhi with it, but you really should be using a Shield against her anyway.

Right now Talos' Fury +2 is your returning spear of choice for most of the game, till you get the superior Impaler later on, which doesn't even completely outshine the former because elemental dmg can be handy sometimes. Nerfing Impaler and moving it early on means you don't have any highly enchanted returning spear, and one of the two spears would end up being unused.

 

Spears appeal and availability

If you are set on keeping both spears so close together, then SoW needs something more. (And I wonder how many of the people who are so set on this have ever chosen spears as their main characters main weapon.) Even fully enchanted Ixil +5 doesn't compare to Impaler and Impaler is a missile weapon as well now!! The anti-stone skin ability is just not too helpful. When you do run into mages at this stage, its PfMW you have to deal with. I know I seem to be harping on this; but from my understanding, one of THE main purposes of this mod is to make non traditionally used items more attractive to players (spears, staffs, daggers, halberds). Remember I can get the sword of chaos in just a few minutes of play and Lilarcor right out Chateau Irenicus. So why should I pick spears or halberds?

Actually I think spears are covered pretty well.

 

Early on you can easily obtain the Spear of the Unicorn, which isn't much different from Lilarcor (immunity to hold instead of confusion, and +3 to saves vs death instead of +3 enchantment). If you don't need the +3 enchantment (and you shouldn't early on) you could actually prefer the spear in many circumstances. Talos' Fury can be bought as soon as you have the gold for it now, and it grants the spear-using character a high degree of versatility because it's a returning weapon with electrical dmg which also benefits from STR bonus to dmg! Adding Backbiter within the early part of the game would ensure you can even get a highly damaging +3 specimen, covering pretty much all you need imo. No?

 

Ixil's Spike is one of the most underrated weapons ever considering that a closer look reveals a Celestial Fury on steroids! It triggers a disabling effect on each hit (within V3 it's even more effective as I replaced 'sleep' opcode with 'hold creature 2') and such effect lasts more (even if I reduced it in V3, it still lasts twice as much CF's Stun) and adds a consistent amount of ongoing dmg. On top of that it grants Free Action (IR's FA doesn't even prevent Haste).

 

Going back to the issue that started it all, I do think it all comes down to moving Backbiter early on, then tweaking or moving SoW and Impaler to make sure SoW isn't discarded on every game because Impaler is free and as appealing as SoW if not more. If I'm not wrong at least one of the two spears should probably be in a store, else you get pretty much all spears for free, and I guess most players would prefer to spend their money on Impaler (even more so now that it has become a returning spear). Thus, moving SoW to kua-toa's king/prince and Impaler to a shop could be a solution (Ribald's secret stash?).

 

Else we can keep both where they are, and find a way to make sure SoW is so appealing that you may be tempted to spend your gold on it even if you have Impaler.

 

Albruin

Albruin makes next to no sense in its vanilla implementation . . . it would be better placed in the hands of someone like Gaal. Or if it's in a store, that works too, as long as it's not too expensive. (The Spear of Kuldahar and Sword of Balduran strike me as costing far more than their enchantments would seem to justify.)

Albruin is now available in a shop early on, and Ardanis will remove its duplicate within UD.

 

Prices within IR are consistent with item's enhancement lvl. Spear of Kuldahar isn't available anymore right now, whereas SoB (which now is a +2 sword with +10% mr, and silver blade) has a base cost of 7500 (afaik Ardanis made stores sell at 150-200% the base price).

 

Whoa, can't believe i haven't looked here for like....a year, and v3 still isn't out haha. Which means its going to be super awesomeness when its finally released!

 

Seems like the items are all finished, just deciding on position now?

Sort of. It took me ages more than expected to work on V3, but the end result is indeed much better than what I expected to do when I started working on it (it started as a very simple update in theory ).

[J Beau]

There were spears long before swords. A simple spear was just a stick with one end sharpened.

 

Anyway I had no idea about the nerfing of impaler, I don't think its been documented. That goes from 14-21 damage to 5-19 damage. I would have liked to see spears bumped to 1-10 base damage. Well that makes SofW more attractive but spears in general less attractive.

 

I still think a good +3 spear in the Planar Sphere makes sense. There are several iron golems there that require +3 weapons and I don't remember if the demons (the ones whose hearts you have to retrieve), or whatever they are require +3. I think a +3 spear, especially since the quest is related to Valygar, is perfectly justifiable. And there are sahuagin there too, are there not.

[Ardanis]

Else we can keep both where they are, and find a way to make sure SoW is so appealing that you may be tempted to spend your gold on it even if you have Impaler.

I don't mind btw.

 

 

Backbiter

I'd avoid making it sold by some fence though, it would have a laughable cost being cursed or I doubt anyone would buy it.

It's 3000 gp, with ~1.5 increment that makes ~4500. Charisma then lowers the price to ~3500.

[Dakk]

Backbiter

I'd avoid making it sold by some fence though, it would have a laughable cost being cursed or I doubt anyone would buy it.

It's 3000 gp, with ~1.5 increment that makes ~4500. Charisma then lowers the price to ~3500.

Generally I don't like acquiring cursed items by buying them. I like SR:s approach of "make cursed items have advantages that make them appealing anyway", but generally I believe that goes for keeping and using an item you got as loot - making them delicious enough for anyone to buy is another matter altogether.

[Demivrgvs]

Impaler

Anyway I had no idea about the nerfing of impaler, I don't think its been documented. That goes from 14-21 damage to 5-19 damage. I would have liked to see spears bumped to 1-10 base damage. Well that makes SofW more attractive but spears in general less attractive.

It is documented here actually. It's 1d10 not 1d8 though. Dmg's nerf is balanced out by the noteworthy advantage of having the returning property.

 

All spears within IR get +1 dmg compared to vanilla (1d8 instead of 1d6), and now +1 range too (making them bypass fireshield-like effects), the electrical spear has been hugely boosted to improve spears' appeal early on, Impaler is slightly less damaging but more versatile, Ixil Spike's is more effective, etc. I don't see how spears can be less attractive than before (you mean vanilla or V2?)...just because Impaler deals 4.5 points of dmg less?

 

Spear of Withering

Else we can keep both where they are, and find a way to make sure SoW is so appealing that you may be tempted to spend your gold on it even if you have Impaler.

I don't mind btw.

Eh...I'll think about it while I try to take some sleep then.

 

Backbiter

I still think a good +3 spear in the Planar Sphere makes sense. There are several iron golems there that require +3 weapons and I don't remember if the demons (the ones whose hearts you have to retrieve), or whatever they are require +3. I think a +3 spear, especially since the quest is related to Valygar, is perfectly justifiable. And there are sahuagin there too, are there not.

Well, I have nothing against moving Backbiter in the Planar Sphere. My only concern is that such place seems already filled with magical items, but pretty much all BG2 quests are filled with magical loot.

 

Backbiter

I'd avoid making it sold by some fence though, it would have a laughable cost being cursed or I doubt anyone would buy it.

It's 3000 gp, with ~1.5 increment that makes ~4500. Charisma then lowers the price to ~3500.

Generally I don't like acquiring cursed items by buying them. I like SR:s approach of "make cursed items have advantages that make them appealing anyway", but generally I believe that goes for keeping and using an item you got as loot - making them delicious enough for anyone to buy is another matter altogether.

I agree with Dakk.

[J Beau]

With the change to Impaler's damage, moving SofW to sahuagin city and backbiter to planar sphere (assuming it is usable), I would be satisfied. I'm curious about Ixil though. I had tried it in vanilla and it never triggered its effect. Certainly nothing like Celestial Fury. I'm assuming that's because of the sleep opcode. Vanilla's free action killing haste always drove me crazy as well.

[J Beau]

Strength bonus doesn't stack with backbiter's self inflicting damage does it? I think 1d3 or 1d4 would be sufficient for that as well.

[Demivrgvs]

Strength bonus doesn't stack with backbiter's self inflicting damage does it? I think 1d3 or 1d4 would be sufficient for that as well.

No it doesn't, I also tweaked it to not display the dmg animation to make the spear more usable. Because of technical issues I didn't used a random value but a fixed 3 points (same reason I had to make Vampiric Touch work this way).

[J Beau]

Oh, very good.

[SixOfSpades]

Well, I have nothing against moving Backbiter in the Planar Sphere.

Well, I certainly do. The Sphere is pretty much the #1 place in the game that BG1 items absolutely cannot be, if we're to preserve any sense of continuity. Put Impaler there if you must, but not Backbiter. Although I definitely agree with the necessity of placing at least one +3 weapon in there, as I myself once made the mistake of heading in there without any . . . it was only by sheer luck that we happened to still be carrying the Cursed Sword of Berserking. C'mere, Keldorn, got a job for you.

 

As far as Backbiter itself is concerned, have you considered the idea of Cromwell (or whoever) breaking the curse? As in, it still hurts you when you use it, but it no longer Super-Glues itself to your hand? A year has passed, some enterprising smith might have decided to make the weapon actually usable.

 

My only concern is that such place seems already filled with magical items, but pretty much all BG2 quests are filled with magical loot.

I still vote the de'Arnise Keep as the biggest candy-store in the game, apart from Watcher's Keep of course. And considering its provenance, I'd say the Sphere is actually perfectly justified in holding a wealth of loot that is, as you say, magical.