Demivrgvs Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 The tweak is aimed to make all type of ranged weapon equally interesting. I propose to: 1) reduce current +1 attack per round to +1/2 2) add missing damage granted by enhancement bonuses Which should: 1) allow bows to retain a faster attack rate which is both unique and quite appropriate. This change is particularly effective/rebalancing for BG1, where bows were really too powerful imo, especially compared to the other ranged weapons. 2) this would rightly make enhancement bonus really matter, instead of adding only a small bonus to THAC0 (as of now there's pratically no difference between a "Bow +1" and a "Bow +3"). In BG2 bows should remain very effective as they pratically trade +1/2 attack per round for 1-5 points of damage. Link to comment
Shaitan Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hmm that seems fine to me at first sight... Link to comment
Raj Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 seems ok. is this going to add damage based to enhancement value to xbows and slings too? Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 is this going to add damage based to enhancement value to xbows and slings too?I already did that, IR's slings and bows have a damage bonus based on their enchantment level. Pratically each ranged weapon would have a different particular advantage: - bows have a +1/2 attack per round - slings allow to wield a shield - xbows have +1 to THAC0 and 0-2 additional damage Link to comment
Shaitan Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 is this going to add damage based to enhancement value to xbows and slings too?I already did that, IR's slings and bows have a damage bonus based on their enchantment level. Pratically each ranged weapon would have a different particular advantage: - bows have a +1/2 attack per round - slings allow to wield a shield - xbows have +1 to THAC0 and 0-2 additional damage ...which makes this "tweak" more appealing Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I already did that, IR's slings and bows have a damage bonus based on their enchantment level. But is the bow +'s cumulative with the + arrows on both damage and Thac0? If so, you do understand what this makes the Archer Kit like, the master of everyone with +5 bows and +2-3 arrows and the Kit bonus+1/3 levels to damage and Thac0. That's like giving Kensai a +7-8 weapon with a ranged and +1/2 attacks per round... except that that it won't work against few 2-3 level mage spells(with SP). Practically each ranged weapon would have a different particular advantage And what about he difference between Short and Long Bow, and Composite ---, heavy and light xbow(damage) etc...? Link to comment
Icendoan Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Weight and speed factor? XBOWs would have different +X damages. Icen Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 But is the bow +'s cumulative with the + arrows on both damage and Thac0? If so, you do understand what this makes the Archer Kit like, the master of everyone with +5 bows and +2-3 arrows and the Kit bonus+1/3 levels to damage and Thac0. That's like giving Kensai a +7-8 weapon with a ranged and +1/2 attacks per round... except that that it won't work against few 2-3 level mage spells(with SP). Let's consider an Archer's damage output on average without taking into account composite bow's damage bonus, archer's epic levels, Called Shot, buffing spells, unique bow's combat abilities and so on, which make vanilla's +1 attack per round more effective compared to +1-5 points of damage. I don't think I've ever seen this powerful kit miss many hits, but assuming he always hit is fine for our comparison (this hypothesis is again "conservative" as additional attacks would be better than additional damage if we remove it). BG1 1D6+1 or 2 (long bow+1) +4 (mastery) +2 (kit's bonus) = 10.5 (11.5 with revision) points of damage Without the tweak he would hit 2.5 times for 26.25 points of damage per round. With the tweak he would hit 2 times for 23 points of damage per round. SoA 1D6+1 or 4 (long bow +3) +2 (arrow +2) +4 (mastery) +5 (kit's bonus) = 15.5 (18.5 with revision) points of damage Without the tweak he would hit 3.5 times for 54.25 points of damage per round. With the tweak he would hit 3 times for 55.5 points of damage per round. ToB 1D6+1 or 6 (long bow +5) +3 (arrow +3) +4 (mastery) +7 (kit's bonus) = 18.5 (23.5 with revision) points of damage Without the tweak he would hit 3.5 times for 64.75 points of damage per round. With the tweak he would hit 3 times for 70.5 points of damage per round. Conclusions Bows would be slightly less damaging in BG1 (very good) almost the same in SoA (good) and slightly more damaging in ToB (not that bad considering most players think ranged weapons are much less effective in BG2 than melee ones). Last but not least removing half an attack per round reduces the effectiveness of all the things we've previously mentioned (special arrows, combat abilities, and so on). P.S Regarding your considerations on 'Archer vs. Kensai' it should take into account that an archer's weapon has a base 1D6 (+1 if long bow) damage, while a kensai can have a base 2D6 or dual wield two 1D10. Not to mention Kensai's melee attacks also have the noticeable damage bonus from strength, which will probably be around +6 points (up to +14 if you're a power player). Practically each ranged weapon would have a different particular advantageAnd what about he difference between Short and Long Bow, and Composite ---, heavy and light xbow(damage) etc...? Weight and speed factor? XBOWs would have different +X damages.Long Bows deal +1 points of damage, and Composite Long Bows deal more damage based on strength requirements. As Icen suggests weight, speed factor, strength requirements, and usability (not all classes can use all type of weapon) are further differences. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I don't really like reducing apr, but that's more of aesthetics than math. Math wise your point is okay. Link to comment
lac Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Will this change an archer's ability to hit Iron Golems and other monsters requiring +x to hit? Link to comment
Raj Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 No, what matters there is the enhancement of the arrows Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 I don't really like reducing apr, but that's more of aesthetics than math. Math wise your point is okay.Wow, believe me or not...it's exactly my very same thought! I don't like half attacks too much, but I think balance should prevail over aesthetic in this case, at least considering the aim of the mod. Will this change an archer's ability to hit Iron Golems and other monsters requiring +x to hit? No, what matters there is the enhancement of the arrowsAs Raj says only the arrow's enchantment determine what you can hit, and unfortunately we can't change that. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 it's exactly my very same thought!Well, I believe it's for the 4th or 5th time already Link to comment
Salk Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Well, all this makes sense so I say "yes" to it... Will it be part of the hot fixes? I'd like to have this before I start my new game. Link to comment
Shaitan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 I'd propose a V3 instead. These bow revisions calls for that IMO Link to comment
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