Suggestions thread

[erik]

I'm open to suggestions. Something you think should be tweaked up/down? Additional effects? (1% magic damage resistance per +1 enchantment, for example) Items that should be reclassified? Fancy effects I've missed that should be changed as well?

[Jarin]

Just curious. Do critical hits get absorbed too? (I was not able to observe this effect ingame yet as I have only played with this mod for 1 hour orso...) Because a Critical Hit is a blow to the head, and that area is not protected by the armor.

[erik]

Critical hits are treated just like other hits, AFAIK. Using helmets still is a good idea, although the hits against you won't be quite as devastating as normal.

 

Hmm. Heavy armor protecting from critical hits in itself could be a possible tweak, I suppose. Not something I'll do at the moment, though.

 

Treating critical hits differently from other hits is impossible, I think.

 

Do yell about how well or badly the mod works when you get somewhere, I'm interested

[Raj]

Can you describe more in depth what are the changes this mod applies please, the readme is very vague.

 

Namely, what numbers are we talking about? AC/resistances for any type of armor, spell changes, what armor class are characters going to show during the game and how is AC vs thac0 balanced early in BG and late in ToB.

 

If I want to play with IR and then skip the incompatible components, is this mod going to change armors in a similar way ( movement speed reduction, dex penalities )?

[erik]

Can you describe more in depth what are the changes this mod applies please, the readme is very vague.

 

Namely, what numbers are we talking about? AC/resistances for any type of armor, spell changes, what armor class are characters going to show during the game and how is AC vs thac0 balanced early in BG and late in ToB.

 

The screenshots show you the stats of two examples - a normal leather armour and a full plate +1. That should explain most things. Install the mod and look at the armours and spells you find - changes should be self-evident from the descriptions - the ingame descriptions are what you are looking for. Have a look around Ribald's, the Candlekeep inn, Pomab's Emporium. The only things that have really good AC are highly enchanted light armours, which have much better AC than they used to have. But as mentioned, heavy armours have much better resistances.

 

As for balance - you tell me! I need playthroughs by brave adventurers. Apply at the local tavern.

 

If I want to play with IR and then skip the incompatible components, is this mod going to change armors in a similar way ( movement speed reduction, dex penalities )?

 

Yes, that's why those components are incompatible.

[Sorrow]

The screenshots show you the stats of two examples - a normal leather armour and a full plate +1. That should explain most things. Install the mod and look at the armours and spells you find - changes should be self-evident from the descriptions - the ingame descriptions are what you are looking for. Have a look around Ribald's, the Candlekeep inn, Pomab's Emporium. The only things that have really good AC are highly enchanted light armours, which have much better AC than they used to have. But as mentioned, heavy armours have much better resistances.

DRs in BG1/BG2/ID1 aren't good to show how armour works. A wearer of the full plate mail shown on your picture would be practically immune to sword cuts IRL and most of sword/spear thrusts would simply fail to penetrate it unless they would hit an armpit or similar location that isn't covered by plate.

In your mod, a few hits with a sword will kill a level 1 fighter while his survivability in normal full plate would be much more realistic.

[erik]

DRs in BG1/BG2/ID1 aren't good to show how armour works. A wear of full plate mail on your picture would be practically immune to sword cuts IRL and most of sword/spear thrusts would simply fail to penetrate it unless they would hit an armpit or similar location that isn't covered by plate.

 

Whack the wearer in the chest with a woodcutting axe and tell me he does not say "ouch". That's a few hit points lost, even if it does not penetrate.

 

In your mod, a few hits with a sword will kill a level 1 fighter while his survivability in normal full plate would be much more realistic.

 

*shrug* In normal bg1/tutu/iwd, hits are less likely, but a hit or two will kill him. With the mod, he survives a few more hits (which may come in the same amount of time, sure).

 

That said, heavy armours could perhaps do with a ac tweak. Time will tell. Playthrough reports wanted.

[Raj]

The SS are even more vague than the readme so basically you're telling me to install and test something that is going to alter the stats of the armors without providing actual numbers.

 

Before messing with installations and wasting some time in game before realize what this mod does a player should know what he's downloading; take a look at other's readmes.

 

Judging from the SS I know Keldorn's armor provides X resistance to slashing; is that the same for every heavy plate? is it related to the enhancement? by how much? and so on.

 

A table listing the ac/dr/penalities for any type of armor would be welcome.

[Sorrow]

Whack the wearer in the chest with a woodcutting axe and tell me he does not say "ouch". That's a few hit points lost, even if it does not penetrate.

Hitting someone with a mass weapon and with a sword isn't the same. Also, you still need to deliver a strong blow to do anything more than a bruise. With percentage DR, even a weakest jab would cause real damage, while with AC one needs a good hit.

 

As for the AC not protecting enough in normal AD&D - AC doesn't raise as fast as Thac0, but Hit Points do - taking in account that high level characters are almost super-heroic and far beyond abilities of normal men, they probably can easily hit less protected places.

 

*shrug* In normal bg1/tutu/iwd, hits are less likely, but a hit or two will kill him. With the mod, he survives a few more hits (which may come in the same amount of time, sure).

No, he doesn't. A hit in normal BG1/Tutu/IWD happens every time when the attack roll defeats the characters AC without armour. So, if a character has normal AC 8 and a full plate armour (AC -1, -5 against slashing), a level 4 character (that would be some elite knight) with a sword (proficiency ++) and STR 17 (Thac0 15) would need to throw at least 7 to hit the character and at least 20 to wound him. If he would use a mass weapon, for example a warhammer (with the same proficiency), his chances would be much higher but he would still need to roll at least 16 to inflict a wound. So, normal armour in BG1/Tutu protects much better when hit.

[erik]

So, normal armour in BG1/Tutu protects much better when hit.

 

Do you have any constructive suggestions for the mod? I'm open to those, as I mentioned.

 

This is a mod changing the armor system. AC here is mostly interpreted as dodging/blocking ability, while DR equals the armour's ability to reduce damage.

 

Balance is naturally changed from stock BG2/AD&D, no question.

[erik]

A table listing the ac/dr/penalities for any type of armor would be welcome.

 

Hmm. Full stats and how-things-are-changed-in-detail goes into spoiler territory for me, I usually don't want that sort of thing myself. But I can whip up a table and post with clear spoiler markings, of course. Give me a few hours.

 

Up now. See the spoiler sticky.

[Raj]

Thanks very much.

[Guest Seff]

So, normal armour in BG1/Tutu protects much better when hit.

 

Do you have any constructive suggestions for the mod? I'm open to those, as I mentioned.

 

This is a mod changing the armor system. AC here is mostly interpreted as dodging/blocking ability, while DR equals the armour's ability to reduce damage.

 

Balance is naturally changed from stock BG2/AD&D, no question.

Constructive criticism: Follow this example. I have long wished to undertake such a mod as this, and now that you have done so, I feel the need to spill my ideas

 

Example: Warrior is wearing Full Plate when a goblin slashes at him with a short sword. Such a slash does no damage, because the armor protects too well (Padding + plate itself.)

A Ogre slashes with a two-handed sword at the same warrior - the mass of the larger sword combined with the greater strength of the Ogre means that our warrior takes damage.

 

By using the percentage system, half (an estimate) of the damage of both attacks is blocked, when all of the damage of the first attack should be blocked and only a fraction of the second attack should be blocked - much more energy is transferred, and the armor has a constant strength.

 

In essence, you want the armor to be able to soak specific amounts of specific damage. Even a weak paw-stroke from a dragon will crush the chest-plate of a generic plate, unless it is enchanted to withhold such trauma.

On the other hand, and army of Xvarts with butter knives won't be able to hurt a plated warrior, unless one of them is lucky (hit a weak spot) - represented by a critical hit. Giving the helmet a cumulative soak factor instead of protection against critical hits would be prudent in this case.

 

 

The sad reality of armors is that they have a very clear evolution, and as such there is no benefit (besides cost; only applicable for enemies for 90% of the game) of wearing maille instead of plate armor. I would move towards realism by reducing the movement penalty for armors, but having them (if possible) induce fatigue faster, the heavier they get. Or perhaps a higher strength requirement?

How well a person dodges or evades relies entirely on how able the person is - trained enthusiasts can run, jump and make cartwheels in armor, so a dodge would not seems out of place.

Dodging is translated directly into Armor class, and is augmented by Dexterity - but Dex also handles hand-to-eye, which an armor doesn't really affect. If armor raises the AC a few points, this slight hindrance will be accounted for, while not disabling the bowmen and others who use Dex for non-dodging things. (how many are those?)

 

Leather armor as described has never really been used, but cuir bouilli is a close relative - another inexpensive type of armor is simple padding worn by itself for shock absorption.

 

I agree on the penalties to all the thieving skills, but I have never understood why casting of arcane spells is blocked while casting divine spells aren't. For balances' sake I'd leave that feature in, though.

 

I hope you can use this for something constructive - I like the initiative, and would love to see it get even better

[Jarno Mikkola]

The cuir bouilli, is Student Leather Armor, as the description says that it's made by boiling the leather.

but Dex also handles hand-to-eye, which an armor doesn't really affect.

Well, I would like to see you wearing 50 lb Plate Mail, saying and testing that fact.

 

Example: ...

So you are talking about Damage Threshold, not damage resistance...

 

There might be few damage opcodes used with negative numbers, that might be workable, using different Targets, the Target:8- not self; for example might help, what would be harder, are to make the effect not stackable with each other... and testing is crucial here.

[Guest Guest_erik_*]

Thanks for the feedback, Seff!

 

Heh. For a truly realistic armour system, see Darklands (1993 by Microprose). It has thickness, penetration, weapon & armour quality, targeting vulnerable spots, etc. That system's not practically implementable in this engine at all. (I still might do an experiment for fun, but...)

 

And the decrease-damage-by-a-fixed-number option (damage threshold, thanks Jarno) isn't cleanly doable in the engine either - or, rather, only in Icewind Dale II, which has an opcode for it. Barring interesting discoveries/experiments by Jarno.

 

I'll think on dex penalties vs ac penalties - you make a pretty good case. But: I'm still using AC a little bit for the glance-off factor (8 / 7 / 6). Worsening ACs even more for the common armoured soldier may not be a good idea. And I don't like the idea of longbowmen unhindered by full plate.

 

I'll digest your thoughts a bit.