Dispel/Remove Magic

[Raj]

Do I need to wait for the next round for true seeing to kick in?

 

[culmore]

Do I need to wait for the next round for true seeing to kick in?

 

 

Your making me laugh! Fanks

[Salk]

SR's Dispel Magic (V2) says:

 

"The base chance of successfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the magic he is trying to dispel, his chance of success increases by 5%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is below the level of the magic he attempts to dispel, his chance of success decreases by 10%. However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure."

 

To rebalance the whole system it might be enough to change two values and keep everything else untouched:

 

"The base chance of successfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the magic he is trying to dispel, his chance of success increases by 3%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is below the level of the magic he attempts to dispel, his chance of success decreases by 6%. However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure."

 

Result:

 

a 25th level Wizard casting Dispel Magic on my 15th level spell has a (50+10*3) 80% chance of dispelling my protection. Very high, but far from the 99% that the present system would grant in the same situation.

 

At the same time my 15th level cast Dispel Magic would have a (50-5*6) 20% chance of dispelling the protection cast by a Wizard of level 20.

 

The high (3%) and low (6%) values can be discussed and fine tuned of course to find the best balance.

[Demivrgvs]

...

 

The high (3%) and low (6%) values can be discussed and fine tuned of course to find the best balance.

Those values are hardcoded, 5% and 10% respectively. That is why I always though tweaking this spell was impossible. Capping/scaling "caster level" is actually the only way to tweak this spell. The problem with chosing a different scaling system over a capped caster level is that we would have to create a quite complicate system imo, which would be even more complicated to describe in the spell's description, not to mention I'm not sure how we would justify a "caster level" that doesn't improve with "caster's levels".

[Salk]

Oh they are hardcoded.

 

I actually didn't expect that. It's bad.

 

The scaling of the level is also not feasible, you say.

 

Well, then it seems that capping is the only solution.

 

Are we sure that level 20 is the ideal limit?

[culmore]

You could always just change/cap/nerf "remove magic" and leave "dispel magic" alone. Dispel would then be consistent with the cleric and paladin dispel magic. Remove magic which it seems is the one that gives players the problem versus the high level mages/liches would no longer be an issue!!!! Folks that use dispel magic to get rid of debuffs would then not be affected by the nerf (does anyone do this). The only folks affected would be those that use remove magic for debuffing enemies.

[Raj]

That would give a ''unfair'' advantage to players because they are the only ones smart enough to aim a full power dispel magic ( being availabe to clerics it could reach level 40 too )

[Demivrgvs]

You could always just change/cap/nerf "remove magic" and leave "dispel magic" alone. Dispel would then be consistent with the cleric and paladin dispel magic. Remove magic which it seems is the one that gives players the problem versus the high level mages/liches would no longer be an issue!!!! Folks that use dispel magic to get rid of debuffs would then not be affected by the nerf (does anyone do this). The only folks affected would be those that use remove magic for debuffing enemies.

That would give a ''unfair'' advantage to players because they are the only ones smart enough to aim a full power dispel magic ( being availabe to clerics it could reach level 40 too )

I agree with Raj. Speaking of consistency, clerics and paladins would obviously use the same spell, though the latters are unfortunately limited to have a maximum caster level of 9 which is a shame imo.

[culmore]

Speaking of consistency, clerics and paladins would obviously use the same spell, though the latters are unfortunately limited to have a maximum caster level of 9 which is a shame imo.

 

Wait can you explain this please. You mean the cleric caster level for dispel will be 9 after your changes? or the current cleric caster level is 9? The same for paladins?

 

I though dispel was one of the big strengths for Keldorn the inquisitor, mind you I don't use his dispel myself as I just don't like dispelling.

[Demivrgvs]

Speaking of consistency, clerics and paladins would obviously use the same spell, though the latters are unfortunately limited to have a maximum caster level of 9 which is a shame imo.

Wait can you explain this please. You mean the cleric caster level for dispel will be 9 after your changes? or the current cleric caster level is 9? The same for paladins?

 

I though dispel was one of the big strengths for Keldorn the inquisitor, mind you I don't use his dispel myself as I just don't like dispelling.

You're doing a little confusion. Inquisitors are not common paladins, their Dispel Magic is actually a Greater Dispel Magic, it's an innate ability, and I'm not touching it at all.

Clerics and paladins instead have Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell. Clerics will normally cast Dispel Magic reaching a cap at 20th level, but a paladin's caster level is capped at 9 without my intervention. I'm not even sure I could change that for paladins, but if it's possible I'll do it for Kit Revisions.

[culmore]

Inquisitors are not common paladins, their Dispel Magic is actually a Greater Dispel Magic, it's an innate ability, and I'm not touching it at all.

Clerics and paladins instead have Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell. Clerics will normally cast Dispel Magic reaching a cap at 20th level, but a paladin's caster level is capped at 9 without my intervention. I'm not even sure I could change that for paladins, but if it's possible I'll do it for Kit Revisions.

 

Right oh now I see!!!!

 

I was not aware of those caps for the cleric/paladin spells. The paper manual does not mention those and I don't remember reading them in game. Makes your proposed change even more sensible, given that such caps already exist for clerics and paladins.

 

Thanks for the information.

[Demivrgvs]

I was not aware of those caps for the cleric/paladin spells. The paper manual does not mention those and I don't remember reading them in game. Makes your proposed change even more sensible, given that such caps already exist for clerics and paladins.

Ehm...it seems I haven't been completely clear, regarding Dispel Magic clerics had no cap at all in BG, though in D&D all spells progressions are capped at 20th level unless explicitly indicated otherwise.

 

In BG, and if I'm not wrong in AD&D too, a paladin's caster level itself is capped at 9, thus a spell which would normally be capped at 15th level would still be casted with a caster level 9 by a 20th level paladin.

[culmore]

Ehm...it seems I haven't been completely clear, regarding Dispel Magic clerics had no cap at all in BG, though in D&D all spells progressions are capped at 20th level unless explicitly indicated otherwise.

 

In BG, and if I'm not wrong in AD&D too, a paladin's caster level itself is capped at 9, thus a spell which would normally be capped at 15th level would still be casted with a caster level 9 by a 20th level paladin.

 

No problems here.

 

The only other thought I had was to try get DavidW from scs2 into this debate and see what he thinks maybe the two of you could brainstorm something together, being as you are the mod designers? I could post on the scs2 form if you don't object and ask him to peak at this thread?? Seems like the change we are talking about here is relevant to both mods.

[Demivrgvs]

The only other thought I had was to try get DavidW from scs2 into this debate and see what he thinks maybe the two of you could brainstorm something together, being as you are the mod designers? I could post on the scs2 form if you don't object and ask him to peak at this thread?? Seems like the change we are talking about here is relevant to both mods.

Fine with me, but if he has some time to mod I think he'll want to devote it to fix the issues with the current versions of SCS, SCSII and WoP first. He previously worked to take into account some SR changes for SCS and I would obvioulsy be over the moon to have the same thing done for SCSII, but I don't want to add him more work to do unless I know he have time and will to do it. After all we don't even know if he likes the huge amount of changes introduced by SR.

[Jarno Mikkola]

You need to make the spell removing spells(at least Breach, Pierce Magic etc.) none-Abjuration spells, as the SI:Abj will kill any attempt to dispel them, and PfMW with it. With SCS contingencies etc...