Prebuffing mages too hard?

[Guest Hurkyl]

While I'm pleased with SCS in general, I find that the changes to mages seem to ruin the gameplay experience; it makes some fights far too difficult for where they occur in the game. I'd also like to point out a couple other little quirks that harm the suspension of disbelief.

 

(I'm aware that maybe I'm just bad at the game. If that's why the fights are difficult for me, please tell me what I'm doing wrong!)

 

For the record, my party was

Charname (Fighter), Imoen (dualled to mage), Khalid, Jahiera, Branwen, Xan/Safana

 

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My problem with prebuffing mages are two specific spells -- improved invisibility and minor globe of invulnerability -- that are very difficult to deal with, since they render near-immunity to the PC party if one doesn't have specific countermeasures, which might not even be available to a party when the fights occur!

 

Improved invisibility made the fights with Silke and Nimbul a nightmare. (I know Silke is optional, but she can only be avoided with 'reload knowledge', which is at odds with immersing one's self in the game world) They both come at a time where you don't have a way to remove invisibility directly, which means you can't cast any spells on them... and coupled with mirror image, it's incredibly difficult to land physical attacks too, so a direct conflict can only really be won by simply trying to survive until they run out of spells, and then whack at them until they die. I did eventually discover that I could beat them by running around the map until improved invisibility wore off... but it was quite tedious and definitely killed the "fun factor".

 

But okay, I learned my lesson. And now I have Branwen memorize invisibility purge and dispel magic at all times, and Imoen memorize glitterdust. (In addition to them and Jahiera keeping a few anti-caster spells memorized) But guess what? Now when exploring the Firewine bridge, I run into Lendarn and Kahrk, who have added minor globe of invulnerability to their list of prebuffs. Now even when I do get rid of invisibility, I still cannot use spells, leaving me with no option but to whack away at mirror images, hoping to outlive spells... which is much more difficult now that the casters are higher level. I did learn that if I run away from Lendarn, the globe will wear off, so I can win if he decides not to chase after me. I can't run away from Kahrk, though, because of haste....

 

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The fight at the bottom of the Nashkel mines takes place at an awkward location: the encounter seems designed to happen inside his room, but now he charges out of his room to meet the party, which results in a big pile of kobolds/skeletons spawning right in the middle of the party.

 

The fight with Lendarn seems oddly placed, because he will run away from his kobolds and ogrillions to encounter the party.

 

Bassilus hails you while you're on the fringe of the graveyard; it seems like it would be better placed if your party was actually inside when it started. I also had a bug in this encounter, and got a bajillion potions of extra healing out of it.

 

Kahrk really shouldn't prebuff, given his circumstances....

[DavidW]

I'll mostly leave others to reply to this, but a couple of points:

 

- no, there aren't many counters to Improved Invisibility + MGI available in BG1, other than Arrows of Dispelling. Melee pile-on is usually the best option - or shoot if they don't have Protection from Missiles.

 

- you might want to try using more pre-battle magic yourself if you're using enemy pre-buff (or conversely, if prebuffing bores you, try uninstalling that component for enemies).

 

- agreed, Kahrk probably shouldn't pre-buff.

[Guest Guest]

Khark prebuffs in the original game though.

[Guest Guest_Dennis_*]

I enjoyed the Khark battle. I died the first few times, and in the end only won because I had a couple of Detect Invisible (Mage 2) spells memorized, which pretty much obviated the Improved Invisibility. Still, in all the times I played BG1 years ago, Khark was supposed to be dangerous but was never a real threat. This time around beating him was difficult and I enjoyed the challenge. Winning required a (for BG1, pre-Cloakwood) high level party, using appropriate spells (notably Detect Invisible) and lots of wand charges and potions. Frankly, I enjoyed the challenge, altough I choose not to play a Tactics install of BWP.

[10thLich]

You can counter Improved Invisibility, Mirror Image and probably every Illusion spell under the sun with a thief who has invested some of his skillpoints in Detect Illusion.

 

10th

[Ilyich]

You can counter Improved Invisibility, Mirror Image and probably every Illusion spell under the sun with a thief who has invested some of his skillpoints in Detect Illusion.

 

10th

 

I'm sure that I read somewhere that skill is bugged in this game and it doesn't work as intended, but more to the point, a thief of level 1-10 doesn't really have enough skill points to spare into a skill that has far less use than lockpicking, disarming traps and hiding in shadows. I suppose you could take a 2nd thief as Hurkyl has, since Imoen and Montaron are available immediately. Safana is also within good early proximity to Beregost and can be reached pretty much straight after the Friendly Arm.

 

All three are good thieves, where Imoen takes the locks and traps and Montaron or Safana in this case, takes the illusion side. (Detect illusions and hide in shadows) Safana's spare points should probably go to trap removal and move silently at alternative level ups.

 

There are enough potions of master thievery that locks will be of little problem should you take this route and dual-class Imoen to mage, (I personally did this at level 7 to match BG II) and traps do little damage for the most part, there are obviously some really bad ones but the most damaging ones, and even worse unremovable (there is only one that I can think of) or ones that activate repeatedly are in Durlag's Tower, and Imoen should be get her thief skills back by this point. (She always did when I did party games)

[Demivrgvs]

Vanilla's Spell Thrust can destroy Minor Globe of Invulnerability if it can target it. I don't remember if Fixpack changed it, but it really shouldn't imo because it would be a deliberate tweak rather than fix considering the very description of Spell Thrust says that it can tear down MGoI.

 

Long story short, SCS assigns an AoE to Spell Thrust, and thus such spell might be the easiest counter ever to a II+MGoI combo.

[Tonton Fred]

SCS assigns an AoE to Spell Thrust, and thus such spell might be the easiest counter ever to a II+MGoI combo.

 

I'm fighting Kahrk at the moment with SCS + SR installed. Spell Thrust seems to randomly work on him, sometimes I get the "Protections dispelled" message, sometimes nothing, the spell is wasted, usually shortly followed by a reload . It doesn't seem to matter whether I target him or a spot near him.

 

The spell description states "no saving throw". Is there a random chance of the spell working a la Dispel Magic ?

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Demivrgvs]

I'm fighting Kahrk at the moment with SCS + SR installed. Spell Thrust seems to randomly work on him, sometimes I get the "Protections dispelled" message, sometimes nothing, the spell is wasted, usually shortly followed by a reload . It doesn't seem to matter whether I target him or a spot near him.

This is a known issue which I really couldn't track down. Considering that the spell do work most of the times (you noticed it too) there a high chance it's a some sort of hard-coded bug (spell removals always had some issues, like not always correctly affecting Spell Shield).

 

I'm 99% sure it isn't caused by SR as I checked the files (spl and pro) hundreds of times, but if you want to help me out you may try to comment out SR's spell removals and check if the relevant SCS Tweak causes the same issue.

 

If SCS AoE causes the same issue then I may try one last workaround that just come up in my mind...removing the 'magic attack' flag to see if the problem is there.

[Tonton Fred]

you may try to comment out SR's spell removals and check if the relevant SCS Tweak causes the same issue.

 

Sure, can you tell me how to do this ? Do I have to edit the tp2 and reinstall ? If that's the case, it'll have to wait a couple weeks, I don't have access to my install computer right now.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Demivrgvs]

you may try to comment out SR's spell removals and check if the relevant SCS Tweak causes the same issue.

Sure, can you tell me how to do this ? Do I have to edit the tp2 and reinstall ? If that's the case, it'll have to wait a couple weeks, I don't have access to my install computer right now.

Well, that would certainly be the best way to do it, but to quickly check it you may do the following:

* copy the relevant spells from override (Spell Thrust is spr321.spl)

* delete the relevant spells from override

* install SCS Tweak

 

This is a sub-optimal solution (and I generally wouldn't recommend it at all), but should work in this case without issues, and by making a backup copy as I'm suggesting restoring everything is uber-easy (just put the relevant spl files back on your override folder).

 

Thanks for your help, I'd try it myself but I'm kinda busy in these days.

[Tonton Fred]

* copy the relevant spells from override (Spell Thrust is spr321.spl)

* delete the relevant spells from override

* install SCS Tweak

 

My install is biffed, so I guess all I would have to do is install the SCS component, which would end up copying the relevant spl files in the override folder.

 

Problem is, I cannot find the relevant component in SCS : I cannot find spr321.spl (typo?), but I can find a spwi321.spl, which is indeed Spell Thrust. But I can't see any component in the TP2 which modifies this file... I also cannot do a change-log as I only copied the essential parts of the install folder to this drive. I guess that'll have to wait until I'm back home.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Demivrgvs]

* copy the relevant spells from override (Spell Thrust is spr321.spl)

* delete the relevant spells from override

* install SCS Tweak

 

My install is biffed, so I guess all I would have to do is install the SCS component, which would end up copying the relevant spl files in the override folder.

 

Problem is, I cannot find the relevant component in SCS : I cannot find spr321.spl (typo?), but I can find a spwi321.spl, which is indeed Spell Thrust. But I can't see any component in the TP2 which modifies this file... I also cannot do a change-log as I only copied the essential parts of the install folder to this drive. I guess that'll have to wait until I'm back home.

I'm an idiot sorry, it's obviously spwi (arcane) not sppr (divine). The SCS component you're looking for is Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility. Yeah, you may simply install it over SR, unless SCS auto-skip it when SR is detected, which is actually quite possible (and good in any other situation but this ).

[Tonton Fred]

Ok. I installed the SCSII component (as I'm playing BGT and it's preferred to its SCS equivalent). Spell Thrust worked 4 out of 4 tries. I then uninstalled the component, going back to SR's version, and Spell Thrust worked 3 out of 5 tries. I admit that's a low number of tries, but it would seem SCS's and SR's versions of the spell are different in that respect. I'll reinstall and try a couple more times to confirm.

 

EDIT :

SCS : 0% failure over 10 tries

SR : 40% failure over 10 tries

[Demivrgvs]

Ok. I installed the SCSII component (as I'm playing BGT and it's preferred to its SCS equivalent). Spell Thrust worked 4 out of 4 tries. I then uninstalled the component, going back to SR's version, and Spell Thrust worked 3 out of 5 tries. I admit that's a low number of tries, but it would seem SCS's and SR's versions of the spell are different in that respect. I'll reinstall and try a couple more times to confirm.

 

EDIT :

SCS : 0% failure over 10 tries

SR : 40% failure over 10 tries

This is indeed strange...but I'll look into it tonight then.