Devas, Planetars and 1PP's attachable wings

[Kalindor]

Please make sure that there is still some reason to cast other level 9 summons like Gate and such even after you gain access to planetars and divas.

[Ardanis]

The best way would be to make it innate, not just made available for normal casting. That's the task for KR, however, not SR as I see it.

[Aranthys]

The best way would be to make it innate, not just made available for normal casting. That's the task for KR, however, not SR as I see it.

By the way, restore the lower robe version of the Planetar as default look. It's soooo much better

[Demivrgvs]

Vorpal Swords

Sorry, I didn't see this reply.

The vorpal effect is allright I would say. Demons have Vorpal weapons, Angels should also have them.

 

I need to test this a bit more, haven't got much time lately, but i'm on a 4 days holiday starting tonight, so i'll be able to test more things

 

Edit.: But a -6 save ? eww....

Make it a ~10% chance save at -2 or die.

I think 5% chance (aka critical hit) is fine.

I do prefer 5% chance, but if your tests seem to indicate -6 penalty is too harsh we may lower it to -4.

 

 

Summon Planetars vs. Gate

Please make sure that there is still some reason to cast other level 9 summons like Gate and such even after you gain access to planetars and divas.

Yeah, I do want HLAs to not-outshine 9th level spells, as it doesn't make sense considering they share the same slots.

 

Well, I'd say SR pit fiends are the utmost summon in terms of raw power (I suppose many SR players would agree ), and they probably outmach planetars 1 vs. 1:

- In terms of resitances/immunities they are almost equal.

- Planetars have much more spells yes, but pit fiends have some cool high level innates (Meteor Swarm, Unholy Word, Symbols, Power Words, and an almost permanent Improved Invisibility).

- as fighters though there's really no competition imo. Pit fiends have 5 attacks per round (instead of 3), better thac0, better AC, more hit points, and three nasty on hit effects (disease, poison and stun!!), and the venomous bite itself is actually as deadly as a vorpal effect (though poison immunity is much more common, and the effect can be cured).

 

Long story short, pit fiends are much less user friendly, but I do think Gate is an incredible effective spell within SR.

 

Same goes for Devas, which should be compared to Death Knights within SR.

 

 

P.S Speaking of summoned demons...I actually have a possible further change in mind (not for V3 though). I personally don't like at all the whole "cast Protection from Evil and they ignore you" thing, and it also causes inconsistency with SCS, as demons gated by opponents aren't affected by ProEvil (I like what SCS does, though I would have limited a little the use of such powerful summons). My idea was to re-introduce the "mind-duel" used by Conjure Elemental spells in vanilla, and apply it to gated demons. If the demon is controlled the whole party is protected from the creature (it wouldn't be a protection from evil effect though, only an undispellable 'protection from creature' opcode). That would be much more similiar to PnP, it may be an interesting way to make these spells more unique, and it would actually make them really dangerous as per description (is there anyone who ever had to fight a demon summoned by his own spellcasters?).

 

 

The best way would be to make it innate, not just made available for normal casting. That's the task for KR, however, not SR as I see it.

mmm...we'll see.

[Kalindor]

is there anyone who ever had to fight a demon summoned by his own spellcasters?

 

I have had some funny and tragic experiences along those lines, actually. Remember, my LAN-game traveling companions have real-life wisdom scores of 6-8. This is one reason why I usually choose to be the party's sorcerer or mage.

[Ardanis]

is there anyone who ever had to fight a demon summoned by his own spellcasters?

 

I've been playing through the Asylum with 'Items are taken party in Spellhold' SCS2's component. When I reached the undead company near the library I found there 2 skeleton warriors, 2 great mummies and a lich having a party. Not being a suicidal type I decided to make a good use of 'Summom Fiend' scroll that I had got not too long before.

 

Fine, the door is opened, PC starts summoning Glabrezu (SpellRevisions), while another one throws DB Fireball in for further fun. They yell 'who's burned the whole vodka supply up?', see a demon who came in without an invitation and being already pretty much drunk think him to be the obvious culprit. Demon sees them making a scary drunky faces reeking of vodka showing the middle tooth and decides to play a Schwarz beating some punks into dust, only this time there are five punks instead of three. Viconia turns FarsightTV on and the party watches the premier of Terminator 4: Within the Asylum. Soon only the lich stands and...

 

...demon leaves the remaining punk and teleports to the TV party, not knowing that it was a live show. Reload, as you might guess.

 

...

[Ardanis]

P.S Speaking of summoned demons...I actually have a possible further change in mind (not for V3 though). I personally don't like at all the whole "cast Protection from Evil and they ignore you" thing, and it also causes inconsistency with SCS, as demons gated by opponents aren't affected by ProEvil (I like what SCS does, though I would have limited a little the use of such powerful summons). My idea was to re-introduce the "mind-duel" used by Conjure Elemental spells in vanilla, and apply it to gated demons. If the demon is controlled the whole party is protected from the creature (it wouldn't be a protection from evil effect though, only an undispellable 'protection from creature' opcode). That would be much more similiar to PnP, it may be an interesting way to make these spells more unique, and it would actually make them really dangerous as per description (is there anyone who ever had to fight a demon summoned by his own spellcasters?).

Have them to initiate a dialog with the summoner (as per Wish). The latter has a choice to either remain silent, after which the demon gets angry and starts demolishing everything as it currently does, or their can try to bargain with the fiend. For the payment I can think of either gold, which is hardly of interest for a demon but likely the only real option in BG, or precious gems (do demons love gems? ). The latter can make those something more useful than sell-them-for-1000-gold.

[Icendoan]

Having bribes of gems or similar sounds like a really, really good idea! I like it. Lots. It adds a need to holding on to these usually worthless items. Might be an idea to add some of the gems it would ask for to shops as well.

 

Also, I can see a sort of cheese, which is to cast Gate against high level Mages and Liches (such as the Twisted Rune) to both gain a summon and have party immunity against their summoned Demon, as well, so it just sits there, or fights the other demon.

 

Icen

[Aranthys]

P.S Speaking of summoned demons...I actually have a possible further change in mind (not for V3 though). I personally don't like at all the whole "cast Protection from Evil and they ignore you" thing, and it also causes inconsistency with SCS, as demons gated by opponents aren't affected by ProEvil (I like what SCS does, though I would have limited a little the use of such powerful summons). My idea was to re-introduce the "mind-duel" used by Conjure Elemental spells in vanilla, and apply it to gated demons. If the demon is controlled the whole party is protected from the creature (it wouldn't be a protection from evil effect though, only an undispellable 'protection from creature' opcode). That would be much more similiar to PnP, it may be an interesting way to make these spells more unique, and it would actually make them really dangerous as per description (is there anyone who ever had to fight a demon summoned by his own spellcasters?).

Have them to initiate a dialog with the summoner (as per Wish). The latter has a choice to either remain silent, after which the demon gets angry and starts demolishing everything as it currently does, or their can try to bargain with the fiend. For the payment I can think of either gold, which is hardly of interest for a demon but likely the only real option in BG, or precious gems (do demons love gems? ). The latter can make those something more useful than sell-them-for-1000-gold.

Excellent idea.

[mercurier]

Bargain with Demon

Nice idea. Though, please take care not to mess up AI .

 

And when comes for the bribe, how about XP (amount maybe depends on caster's level) instead of (or, in addition to) GP/gem? XP can be considered as part of character's soul which might interest demons. Moreover, the quantity of rare gems in game is fixed, while XP can somehow be considered not. Additionaly, shall we prevent lawful good characters from bribing demons?

[Demivrgvs]

Bargain with Demon

Have them to initiate a dialog with the summoner (as per Wish). ...

Yeah, tha's exactly what I had in mind.

 

Excellent idea.

Nice idea. Though, please take care not to mess up AI .

I still haven't thought too much on the various options to offer, but yeah, bribing with gems and gold may work on some occasions, as well as xp cost (which is how Gate works in PnP)...we'll see.

 

Regarding the AI I actually started to think about this just because SCS has mages cast this spell completely ignoring Protection from Evil as a "common" conjuration. I won't work on this in the near future, but I suppose I can make it "AI friendly" in two ways: 1) using custom creatures and letting the AI use a creature without the new feature 2) by putting a condition on top of the creatures script such as "if last summoner of myself 'evilcutoff' than allies with him". I do hope 2) works, as it would be way better.

 

Regarding Lawful Good characters using Gate I'd dare to say this spell shouldn't be available to them, but we may also handle it in a different way:

- a higher chance the demon turns against the good aligned mage

- drop of reputation

- ...

 

In theory we may even have Gate summon different creatures based on caster alignment (Balor and Solar), but I think that's asking too much.

[SixOfSpades]

Bargain with Demon

Solars would definitely be overkill . . . Planetars, Elemental Princes and Pit Fiends are quite strong enough as the top-level summons. As for what to offer the demons, gold and EXP both seem frightfully mundane, especially the gold. What, is he going to take his money back to the Abyss, and go buy a corn dog? Gems are a little better, but only a little. What really makes sense are certain plot-related items, like Malla's Soul Stone, and Kara'shur's Heart (I think he was the Tanar'ri, which would please a Devil) . . . and if you gave Adalon's eggs to the Lesser Demon Lord, he'll allow you to summon, say, 8 Pit Fiends for free.

 

For Good/Neutral types (especially Lawful), a different summon appears to be in order. Why can't we call upon the aid of angels instead of demons? A Minor Solar, perhaps, or the avatar of a like-minded demigod(dess)?

[Demivrgvs]

Bargain with Demon

Solars would definitely be overkill . . . Planetars, Elemental Princes and Pit Fiends are quite strong enough as the top-level summons.

I suppose you haven't seen SR's Pit Fiends. And despite what you think Solars would actually be exactly on par with Pit Fiends and Balors within SR.

 

Elemental Princes are very strong, but they are a 7th level summon (though slightly better than a common summon for that level), and same can be said about Devas...SR's Pit Fiends would eat them for breakfast. Even Planetars are not as powerful as Pit Fiends, though the difference in this case is not huge because of Planetar's wide arsenal of spells.

 

More or less I've this table in mind...

* Angels: Deva (14HD, 7th level spell), Planetar (18HD, 9th level spell), Solar (24HD)

* Demons: Glabrezu (17HD, 8th level "semi-hostile" spell), Balor (24HD)

* Devils: Cornugon (17HD), Pit Fiend (24HD, 9th level "semi-hostile" spell)

 

Gated demons and devils are more powerful than (fallen) angels of the same spell level, but there's the chance of them turning hostile to balance this (even if having it work via Protection from Evil makes it too easy for players imo). A Solar summoned with a 9th level spell would need serious drawbacks to be "balanced", but I don't see a Solar turning against the party (though he may not respond to the call), that's why I think this spell should just keep its "evil" aspect.

 

 

As for what to offer the demons, gold and EXP both seem frightfully mundane, especially the gold. What, is he going to take his money back to the Abyss, and go buy a corn dog? Gems are a little better, but only a little. What really makes sense are certain plot-related items, like Malla's Soul Stone, and Kara'shur's Heart (I think he was the Tanar'ri, which would please a Devil) . . . and if you gave Adalon's eggs to the Lesser Demon Lord, he'll allow you to summon, say, 8 Pit Fiends for free.

That would be cool yes (and make this spell as complicated as Find Familiar ), we'll see.

 

For Good/Neutral types (especially Lawful), a different summon appears to be in order. Why can't we call upon the aid of angels instead of demons? A Minor Solar, perhaps, or the avatar of a like-minded demigod(dess)?

Actually we can do this, it's just that for every additional summon there's an additional huge amount of work and tests.

[Constantine]

Bargain with Demon

Nice idea. Though, please take care not to mess up AI .

 

And when comes for the bribe, how about XP (amount maybe depends on caster's level) instead of (or, in addition to) GP/gem? XP can be considered as part of character's soul which might interest demons. Moreover, the quantity of rare gems in game is fixed, while XP can somehow be considered not. Additionaly, shall we prevent lawful good characters from bribing demons?

 

I dislike the idea about XP. I think this would generally end up in avoiding casting this spell at all

[Ardanis]

2) by putting a condition on top of the creatures script such as "if last summoner of myself 'evilcutoff' than allies with him".

Exactly my thoughts. Guess it doesn't come much as a surprise, huh?

Except may be two blocks, not one:

1) if last summoner is PC then initiate dialog, where depending on the outcome, either turn ally (needs higher bribe), good_but_blue or remain good_but_red

2) if !PC then, as youve said, ally with the summoner

 

As for what to offer the demons, gold and EXP both seem frightfully mundane, especially the gold. What, is he going to take his money back to the Abyss, and go buy a corn dog? Gems are a little better, but only a little. What really makes sense are certain plot-related items, like Malla's Soul Stone, and Kara'shur's Heart (I think he was the Tanar'ri, which would please a Devil) . . . and if you gave Adalon's eggs to the Lesser Demon Lord, he'll allow you to summon, say, 8 Pit Fiends for free.

The problem with the items you've suggested is their individuality, whereas gold and gems can considered as a sort of stable currency. Yes, demons aren't dragons and have little use for gold/gems, but within IE it probably is the only solution that will work flawlessly, if asking for suspension of disbelief. Otherwise the dialog file may get quite bloated.

I see nothing wrong about including several artifacts into menu, to add extra flavour. I would work somewhat like Limited Wish's one-time options.

 

XP - I too find it rather repelling.

 

A Solar summoned with a 9th level spell would need serious drawbacks to be "balanced", but I don't see a Solar turning against the party (though he may not respond to the call), that's why I think this spell should just keep its "evil" aspect.

To keep the evil aspect, I agree with. First, it may be considered as discriminating for a good PC being unable to call a demon. Second, allowing to select whom to call will, you know, add more work to ensure compatibility with AI. Third, the revamp of the current Deva-Planetar balance system - Solars are higher than those, so for the sake of consistency it would mean Gate summoning a planetar and Summon 'Planetar' - a solar.