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SCS balance discussion


Guest Krazy

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I'd like to have some free time to create a mod improving/changing the random encounters between areas ... it would change that definitely ;-)

*BGEncounter System*

We hope that you find some free time in the future. :rolleyes:

 

Greetings Leomar

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I discovered something with the ease of use AI, not sure if it's intended.

If you use the "B" button to buff your whole groupe with Fire Protection (Been using a lot of AoE damage lately in dangerous fights), you have ~4 seconds after buffing to cast all of your other spells instantly.

Now i use this to buff my whole party quite fast before a fight.

 

I didn't try to abuse it, but can't someone use this feature to also cast damage spells ?

 

 

It only works outside combat. (The hotkey won't normally work when there's a fight going on.)

 

What's going on is that the prebuff casts an improved-alacrity-plus-accelerate-casting-time spell on you before autocasting your buffs. As always, if people do want to (ab)use this, I don't mind.

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I'd like to have some free time to create a mod improving/changing the random encounters between areas ... it would change that definitely ;-)

*BGEncounter System*

We hope that you find some free time in the future. ;)

 

Greetings Leomar

 

I will grab that name so, I'm trying to look for some info in the meantime ... :mwaha:

 

Sorry for the OT DavidW :rolleyes:

 

mm75

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Guest Guest
I discovered something with the ease of use AI, not sure if it's intended.

If you use the "B" button to buff your whole groupe with Fire Protection (Been using a lot of AoE damage lately in dangerous fights), you have ~4 seconds after buffing to cast all of your other spells instantly.

Now i use this to buff my whole party quite fast before a fight.

 

I didn't try to abuse it, but can't someone use this feature to also cast damage spells ?

 

 

It only works outside combat. (The hotkey won't normally work when there's a fight going on.)

 

What's going on is that the prebuff casts an improved-alacrity-plus-accelerate-casting-time spell on you before autocasting your buffs. As always, if people do want to (ab)use this, I don't mind.

 

It seems like this does't work with the mage spell "Protection from fire".

Even when I have 3 memorised spells, they don't automatically cast it (That would be usefull, since the lvl 3 wizard spell is 1turn/lvl instead of the 1rnd/level of the equivalent priest spell).

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Guest Krazy

Okay, been playing a bit more. A few more observations.

 

One thing that really does annoy me with smarter AI is that even creatures devoid of any appreciable intelligence seem to be able to tell the mage from the fighter. And interestingly they can tell the difference between Jaheira and Khalid even though they have practically identical gear and before Jaheira casts a spell.

 

Anyway, with regards to mages around the time you get level 4 spells, things start becoming easier but I still maintain that they are too deadly before then. Also I'm going to voice support for more variation in mage spells - they are practically clones despite the randomness of some spells. I think it's only right one mage might fireball whilst another chucks chaos and another wants to turn you into a squirrel. More work for you David I know, but mages became way too predictable.

 

Also the fact that every mage has a core contigent of spells, one has to assume that those spells are incredibly easy to come by. Given the limited availability of many spells before you get to the city this should be rectified by giving Thalantyr more scrolls. Either these scrolls are rare or they are not, and if they are I want to know why every mage has a copy of them.

 

Kinda surprised by the changes in some fights like the woman (beings with a C) at the top of the Iron Throne suddenly getting two stone golems. Er what?

 

Certainly alot of brutal fights in Durlag's Tower.

 

Although I had problems with Aec Letec. For one I tried running Immy down improved invisible and casting cloudkill - it would injure some of the cultists, kill the woman and then I'd see 4 cultist each become Aec! Needless to say I was slaughtered. I had numerous other problems like the fight not proceeding properly, scripts not firing properly so in the end I had to spawn Aec manually.

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Okay, been playing a bit more. A few more observations.

 

One thing that really does annoy me with smarter AI is that even creatures devoid of any appreciable intelligence seem to be able to tell the mage from the fighter. And interestingly they can tell the difference between Jaheira and Khalid even though they have practically identical gear and before Jaheira casts a spell.

OK, so there's supposed to be a distinction between intelligent and non-intelligent creatures made to avoid this problem. Can you let me know which creatures you think should be stupid? - let's pin down whether this is a philosophy disagreement or just a bug.

Anyway, with regards to mages around the time you get level 4 spells, things start becoming easier but I still maintain that they are too deadly before then.

Well, as always the problem is: relative to what? Some people find it too hard; others find it too easy.

 

Also I'm going to voice support for more variation in mage spells - they are practically clones despite the randomness of some spells. I think it's only right one mage might fireball whilst another chucks chaos and another wants to turn you into a squirrel.

Fireball is pretty hard to use, actually - the incinerate-own-flunkies problem is pretty killing. Polymorph doesn't seem to work on PCs.

More work for you David I know, but mages became way too predictable.

It would be useful to know: do you think they're too predictable relative to the vanilla game, or to some idealised setup?

 

Also the fact that every mage has a core contigent of spells, one has to assume that those spells are incredibly easy to come by. Given the limited availability of many spells before you get to the city this should be rectified by giving Thalantyr more scrolls. Either these scrolls are rare or they are not, and if they are I want to know why every mage has a copy of them.

My theory is always that NPC wizards have years or decades to acquire their spells, whereas the player character has two or three months.

 

Kinda surprised by the changes in some fights like the woman (beings with a C) at the top of the Iron Throne suddenly getting two stone golems. Er what?

It's in "improved minor encounters". (Her name is Cythandria; I'm pretty sure it's in the readme.)

 

Certainly alot of brutal fights in Durlag's Tower.

Is that good or bad? :rolleyes:

 

Although I had problems with Aec Letec. For one I tried running Immy down improved invisible and casting cloudkill - it would injure some of the cultists, kill the woman and then I'd see 4 cultist each become Aec! Needless to say I was slaughtered. I had numerous other problems like the fight not proceeding properly, scripts not firing properly so in the end I had to spawn Aec manually.

I don't touch Aec'letec, so blame the vanilla game.

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Regarding creature intelligence, Undead (with the exception of Vampires, Liches and unique named creatures) and Golems shouldn't be able to immediately differentiate between character classes. Animals, Humanoids and Monsters below a certain intelligence score (for example, 8) perhaps shouldn't be able to differentiate also. However, if it casts spells, innate or otherwise, it can differentiate, regardless of what the creature is.

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You could also argue that anything around 8 INT can say that guys a mage because he is wearing robes, covered in amulets and spell components, reading from scrolls, using a wand and not constantly spouting prayers to a deity. :rolleyes:

 

Icen

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Guest Krazy
OK, so there's supposed to be a distinction between intelligent and non-intelligent creatures made to avoid this problem. Can you let me know which creatures you think should be stupid? - let's pin down whether this is a philosophy disagreement or just a bug.

 

Things like slimes/oozes, skeletons, spiders. With regards to 8 Int and robe wearers, they still hit Imoen (dualled to a mage) over my unarmoured kensai. Just because the kensai is dual-wielding axes - doesn't mean she isn't a mage!

 

Anyway, with regards to mages around the time you get level 4 spells, things start becoming easier but I still maintain that they are too deadly before then.
Well, as always the problem is: relative to what? Some people find it too hard; others find it too easy.

 

Relative to your ability to deal with them. When the party is level 3/4 or so, it is all too easy to find a mage of levels 7+ and not only that accompanied by a few heavy-hitting grunts. Those people who find it too easy, are they cheating, heavily metagaming, powergaming, farming XP away from mages?

 

This ties in with the point about the uniformity of mages in that they do have an almost perfect spell setup. They almost certainly will chuck confusion/chaos - which are absolutely killer spells and things like potions of clarity etc don't grow on trees and are limited in number. They all have minor globe which requires spell thrust (a spell you can't get that early on). They all have melf's minute meteors which is incredibly lethal - and despite a mage's supposed rubbish thac0 they seem proficient at disrupting enemy spellcasters with it. That and magic missile. No point even wasting a slot on dispel magic they are too high a level too even stand a decent chance.

 

I found my ability to deal with these mages reliably didn't happen until I could cast 4th level spells which meant I had a slim chance of taking the mages out of the picture from the get go, since it would bypass their globe protection.

 

With regards to Cythandria - I didn't read specific improvements, just the general improvements. But stone golems? They were incredibly nasty. Why not just make her two ogre berserkers or whatever they were before tougher instead?

 

Durlag's Tower - brutal fights are good, just took me a while to beat them, especially the chess board and the warders :rolleyes:

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I will echo the sentiment that it would be very cool indeed to see a wider variety of spellcasting routines from enemy mages. They don't always have to be better. But I would enjoy simply being suprised sometimes by what they do.

 

I agree that fireball isn't a great option. But I know I would enjoy seeing the following spells used against the party

 

Blindness (target backrow spellcasters with it)

Grease (one of those PIA spells; if you want to make it tougher combine with Sleep and Horror)

Color Spray (it might sometimes inadvertantly knock some enemy goons unconscious, but it could also do the same to several party members; target the party's tanks)

Spook (pretty hard to save against if preceded by Malison and Glitterdust)

Ghoul Touch (love this spell! when it hits follow with Vampiric or Lightning Bolt)

Glitterdust (goes well with Malison)

Hold Person (follow with Vampiric or Lightning Bolt)

Lightning Bolt

Vampiric Touch

Contagion (follow with Vampiric)

Otiluke's (a party mage encased in the sphere can't cast Dispel Magic to dispel it)

 

and certain spells combinations such as Sleep and Horror, and Emotion and Chaos, are devastating.

 

And can enemy mages use wands?

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OK, so there's supposed to be a distinction between intelligent and non-intelligent creatures made to avoid this problem. Can you let me know which creatures you think should be stupid? - let's pin down whether this is a philosophy disagreement or just a bug.

 

Things like slimes/oozes, skeletons, spiders.

 

The SCS AI does smart targetting for all humanoids, giant humanoids, dragons, doppelgangers, vampiric wolves, demons, and werewolves, and all undead except skeletons and zombies. Other creatures just attack the nearest target. So I'm puzzled by the behaviour you're seeing, and I'd be interested to know if others are seeing it.

 

With regards to 8 Int and robe wearers, they still hit Imoen (dualled to a mage) over my unarmoured kensai. Just because the kensai is dual-wielding axes - doesn't mean she isn't a mage!

 

No, but it's a fairly good indicator (and the IE scripting engine isn't subtle enough to do better).

 

Anyway, with regards to mages around the time you get level 4 spells, things start becoming easier but I still maintain that they are too deadly before then.
Well, as always the problem is: relative to what? Some people find it too hard; others find it too easy.

 

Relative to your ability to deal with them.

 

... which doesn't really answer the question, since different people find different levels of difficulty.

 

When the party is level 3/4 or so, it is all too easy to find a mage of levels 7+ and not only that accompanied by a few heavy-hitting grunts.

In general, blame the vanilla game, since I don't change mages' levels: I just get them to fight as effectively as possible. (More accurately: I only change their levels in separate, optional components.)

 

Those people who find it too easy, are they cheating, heavily metagaming, powergaming, farming XP away from mages?

 

Anyone want to comment? (Personally I'm not doing any of these things when I play. I am being careful with my scouting, making sure I scatter in mage battles, and accepting casualties.)

 

With regards to Cythandria - I didn't read specific improvements, just the general improvements. But stone golems? They were incredibly nasty. Why not just make her two ogre berserkers or whatever they were before tougher instead?

 

Well, I could have done that; equally, I could have made them stone golems. Any component of a mod which changes content is bound to involve some creative choices. Do you have a particular problem with them being stone golems? (Being "incredibly nasty" isn't obviously a criticism in a difficulty-enhancing component of a tactical mod.)

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I will echo the sentiment that it would be very cool indeed to see a wider variety of spellcasting routines from enemy mages. They don't always have to be better. But I would enjoy simply being suprised sometimes by what they do.

 

Same question as to Krazy: do you find them narrower than in the vanilla game, or just narrower than would be ideal?

 

I agree that fireball isn't a great option. But I know I would enjoy seeing the following spells used against the party

 

Blindness (target backrow spellcasters with it)

Good idea.

 

Grease (one of those PIA spells; if you want to make it tougher combine with Sleep and Horror)

Same problem as fireball: it's a non-party-friendly area-effect spell, so it's very difficult to script for mages to use it without occasionally doing something immersion-breakingly stupid.

 

Color Spray (it might sometimes inadvertantly knock some enemy goons unconscious, but it could also do the same to several party members; target the party's tanks)

Yeah, but a real enemy would never be stupid enough to use it in situations where his own side could be devastated, so I'm reluctant to get the AI to do so.

 

Spook (pretty hard to save against if preceded by Malison and Glitterdust)

Now I know about the save penalty, it's worth considering, though it's quite easy to protect against.

 

Ghoul Touch (love this spell! when it hits follow with Vampiric or Lightning Bolt)

I think fighter-mages use it occasionally, but it's too dangerous for pure mages.

 

Glitterdust (goes well with Malison)

Worth considering.

 

Hold Person (follow with Vampiric or Lightning Bolt)

I already use this.

 

Lightning Bolt

I use this occasionally, but it has the same problems as Fireball.

 

Vampiric Touch

 

I'm pretty sure I already use this.

 

Contagion (follow with Vampiric)

Otiluke's (a party mage encased in the sphere can't cast Dispel Magic to dispel it)

But these really aren't competitive with other 4th-level choices.

 

and certain spells combinations such as Sleep and Horror, and Emotion and Chaos, are devastating.

I'm pretty sure I already use those combinations; certainly I use all four singly.

 

And can enemy mages use wands?

Yes. The main place you'll see this is the priest with the Wand of the Heavens in the Iron Throne tower, and in a couple of places where enemies have Wands of Paralysis.

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OK, so there's supposed to be a distinction between intelligent and non-intelligent creatures made to avoid this problem. Can you let me know which creatures you think should be stupid? - let's pin down whether this is a philosophy disagreement or just a bug.

 

Things like slimes/oozes, skeletons, spiders.

 

The SCS AI does smart targetting for all humanoids, giant humanoids, dragons, doppelgangers, vampiric wolves, demons, and werewolves, and all undead except skeletons and zombies. Other creatures just attack the nearest target. So I'm puzzled by the behaviour you're seeing, and I'd be interested to know if others are seeing it.

 

I have not seen slimes/oozes, skeletons, or spiders target mages.

 

Anyway, with regards to mages around the time you get level 4 spells, things start becoming easier but I still maintain that they are too deadly before then.
Well, as always the problem is: relative to what? Some people find it too hard; others find it too easy.

 

Relative to your ability to deal with them.

 

... which doesn't really answer the question, since different people find different levels of difficulty.

 

The difficulty is certainly higher with smarter mages and priests. Some of the toughest encounters come very early on when the party is gaining its first few levels, eg, Tarnesh, Silke, Zordal, Bassilus, Neira, Mulahey, Nimbul.

 

Honestly, I can't recall if the mages among those particular opponents buff with spells that make them next to impossible to combat for a level 1-3 party: specifically, the combo of Globe/Improved (?) Invisibility. Early in the game the party lacks Dispel Magic for MGoI and GoI, and Oracle for II. (Detect Invisibility and Glitterdust could be used versus Invisibility, though.) And without a way for the party mage to remove those protections, the enemy casts away with impunity. Then there is little the party can do but try to outlast the enemy's spell attacks while those buffs are in effect. If that is the case, then I would agree that these low level encounter enemy mages should not buff with those spells. Those enemy mages could still remain hugely dangerous to the party by unleashing any number of offensive spell routines. The combo of Sleep and Horror in a Minor Sequencer, for example, would be devastating, I'm sure. That might actually be even harder to combat, so I'm not recommending it! Just offering it as one example of powerful offensive spell routines. You can have enemy mages live more dangerously by casting offensive spells, with the tradeoff of being more vulnerable to having their spellscasting disrupted.

 

Personally, I no longer install enemy prebuffs--SCS is hard enough without that! But I have found that when enemy mages have a Contingency set to cast on sight of an enemy, the prebuff component actually makes little difference. They'll just cast the same buffs in an instant anyway.

 

Zordal's use of Sleep is particularly powerful in the enclosed space of the small carnival tent. I don't metagame by buffing up the party prior to entering. I will eventually get the win after a number of reloads. It depends on the dice rolls for who in the party gets knocked unconcsious. If I have Minsc in the party, for whom I always use Drew's 'Berserker Minsc' mini-mod, I think he may just an instant in which to berserk beofre Sleep is cast, though I can't quite recall.

 

Even in the vanilla game, for Mulahey I have always resorted to metagaming by buffing before entering the chamber (or just inside it). Even in vanilla I find it too difficult to defeat him without buffing beforehand.

 

The tactic that I have always used early in the game against such spellcasters (vanilla or SCS, regardless) is to try to break the enemy spellcaster's concentration with a wand of magic, missiles, ranged weapons, and melee attacks. Imoen has a wand of magic missiles on her when she joins, and you can buy them at High Hedge. (For CG, mercenary, and evil types of PCs you might have to resort to having Imoen make some burglary runs in Beregost to raise the gold.)

 

 

When the party is level 3/4 or so, it is all too easy to find a mage of levels 7+ and not only that accompanied by a few heavy-hitting grunts.

In general, blame the vanilla game, since I don't change mages' levels: I just get them to fight as effectively as possible. (More accurately: I only change their levels in separate, optional components.)

 

Those people who find it too easy, are they cheating, heavily metagaming, powergaming, farming XP away from mages?

 

Anyone want to comment? (Personally I'm not doing any of these things when I play. I am being careful with my scouting, making sure I scatter in mage battles, and accepting casualties.)

 

Yes, FYI here's a typical SCS installation for me:

 

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #10 // Correct various errors on race, class etc

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #50 // Re-introduce potions of extra-healing

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #60 // Faster Bears

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #70 // Allow player to choose NPC proficiencies and skills

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #100 // Allow Yeslick to use axes

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #110 // Move NPCs to more convenient locations

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #120 // Smarter general AI

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #130 // Better calls for help

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #140 // Potions for NPCs

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #160 // Smarter mages

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #180 // Smarter priests

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #200 // Smarter deployment

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #230 // Smarter sirines and dryads

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #240 // Slightly harder carrion crawlers

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #250 // Smarter basilisks

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #260 // Improved doppelgangers

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #270 // Tougher Black Talons and Iron Throne guards

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #280 // Relocated bounty hunters

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #290 // Improved Ulcaster

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #300 // Improved Balduran's Isle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #320 // Improved Demon Cultists

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #340 // Tougher chapter-two end battle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #350 // Tougher chapter-three end battle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #360 // Tougher chapter-four end battle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #370 // Tougher chapter-five end battle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #380 // Tougher chapter-six end battle

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #410 // Remove blur effect from displacer cloak

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #420 // Stackable ankheg shells and winterwolf pelts

~SETUP-SCS.TP2~ #0 #440 // Ease-of-use player AI

 

I have found the improved versions of Durlag's chessboard and final battle with Sarevok too difficult for my taste. So I do not install those components. The smarter mages and priests substantially increases the difficulty for those encounters. But the improved versions just make them ballbustingly difficult, and so much so that the game becomes unenjoyable for me.

 

I do not by any means find the game "too easy" with SCS installed. But I do find all the encounters to be winnable, albeit some with quite a number of reloads. I do scout whenever possible. (The Non-Detection spell and Cloak of Non-Detection prove very helpful in that regard.) As mentioned above I do sometimes resort to matagaming, but no more than I already did in the vanilla game, tbh.

 

 

With regards to Cythandria - I didn't read specific improvements, just the general improvements. But stone golems? They were incredibly nasty. Why not just make her two ogre berserkers or whatever they were before tougher instead?

 

Well, I could have done that; equally, I could have made them stone golems. Any component of a mod which changes content is bound to involve some creative choices. Do you have a particular problem with them being stone golems? (Being "incredibly nasty" isn't obviously a criticism in a difficulty-enhancing component of a tactical mod.)

 

This is a bit early in the game for a party mage to be at level 10 (or is it 9?) and thereby be able to scribe Lower Resistance. I can't recall if those stone golems are hittable without lowering their MR... I'm not recalling that they posed that great a difficulty, though. So I must have been able to hit them.

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Same question as to Krazy: do you find [the variety of enemy spellcasting routines] narrower than in the vanilla game, or just narrower than would be ideal?

 

With the improved boss encounters, I would think you have individualized their spell routines more. In that case I'm thinking there is greater variety than the vanilla game.

 

In vanilla they're not smart spellcasters at all; and in fact enemy spellcasters are often rather easy to prevent from ever casting any spells to begin with. It's only in a relatively small number of encounters that vanilla poses a serious mage threat. So it's hard (for me) to answer this, really.

 

But anyway, answer for me is I would ideally like to see an assortment of spellcasting routines from Smarter Mages and Smarter Priests.

 

Perhaps some other approaches might be more reckless on the enemy's part, sure. But depending on the dice rolls and the party's tactical choices they could still prove quite difficult in their own right. They'll be difficult to defeat when the routines work well, and perhaps the enemy will be easier to defeat when they don't. But the greater variety itself is what would increase the fun value for me, provided that those other spells routines do work well most of the time.

 

This is a matter of taste, I realize--others may not appreciate occasionally finding an opponent easier to defeat in the interest of increasing the variety.

 

Same problem [with Grease] as fireball: it's a non-party-friendly area-effect spell, so it's very difficult to script for mages to use it without occasionally doing something immersion-breakingly stupid.

 

Yeah, there is that downside... but enemy warrior classes are pretty much just cannon fodder anyway... They're mainly just placing a temporary barrier between the party's tanks and enemy spellcasters. The party meleers go through them ptetty quickly no matter what...

 

If Grease is used and enemy warriors gulp down potions of Freedom (works with Grease? never tried it) and/or Oils of Speed they'll gain an edge. That would be part of the strategy on the enemy's part from the getgo. I.e., if you have a mage who's going to cast Grease then you have a strategy in mind to provide that advantage. By comparison, the party might not have these potions handy.

 

Is it possible to have the enemy frontline warriors switch to bows automatically when they're at least x distance from any party member? Because the party suffers the same problem the enemy does of moving in the oil slick. I.e., both sides have trouble moving within the slick. I consider that a stalemate. Especially if those warrior types are scripted target party mages with bows when under the effect of Grease, and sufficiently far away from a party meleer. Then that's a fair fight, I would think.

 

[A] real enemy would never be stupid enough to use in situations where his own side could be devastated, so I'm reluctant to get the AI to do so... I think fighter-mages use [Ghoul Touch] occasionally, but it's too dangerous for pure mages.

 

You know, what I was thinking of here is that I have played mage PCs before who performed shockingly well (vs SCS, btw) using touch spells and a qusrterstaff. I was amazed at how little damage a mage typically takes using a quarterstaff even when he is directly in melee. I guess the longer reach of the quarterstaff actually makes a difference.

 

Now I do aknowledge that when I, as a player am controling such a character, I can coordinate his movement and make choices for him that the AI cannot. I recognize that the lack of a human being controling the character may make this type of character easy prey for the player. But as long as there are meleers engaging opponent tanks... and let us say that the enemy mage is buffed with PfNW and PfM... a mage should be able to walk around casting Ghoul Touch, Color Spray, Contagion, Vampiric, Lightning Bolt, and so forth. If the mage drinks an oil of speed then so much the better.

 

This type of opponent that might also be protected by Improved Invisibility (and maybe MGoI or GoI). Even if they just regularly gulp down potions of invisibility when hit, they could probably really mess with the party's meleers.

 

Color Spray may take down some on your own side, sure, but it will also usually do the same for the opponent. Unless you have some means of having a greater chance to have the opponent to succumb to the spell, it's just a fun thing for the player to try to occasionally fight, if not the smartest tactic on the enemy's part... I guess there aren't any potions or spell buffs the enemy could use to protect its tanks from this spell...

 

What if an enemy mage Dimension Door's right on top of a party's backrow spellcasters and Color Sprays them? Personally, I would find that hilarious to watch.

 

Now I know about the save penalty [for Malison/Glitterdust/Sppok], it's worth considering, though it's quite easy to protect against.

 

Were you thinking of Resist Fear?... With all the saving throws lowered so much (-14), I'm curious how good is Resist Fear's protection? And for Resist Fear, the description states "if the recipient is affected by magical fear, this spell is negated." Spook is an arcane spell, so I would think Resist Fear offers no protection against it.

 

Otherwise what else would be used by a SCS mage to (reliably) protect against Malison/Glitterdust/Spook? Spell Immunity: Illusion? I guess there's plenty of enemy mages at level 10 (or 9, whichever it is) that can cast that protection. But if they can't always be choosing that protection, right?

 

I use [Lightning Bolt] occasionally, but it has the same problems as Fireball.

 

Out in the open space there's less risk. But even indoors, why not have the enemy mages live a little dangerously sometimes? You could maybe have enemy warriors buff with Potions of Absorption. Again, that's just an assumed part of the enemy strategy. I.e., the enemy mage simply advises them to protect themselves at the outset, i.e., whenever battle is joined, because he's going to be casting certain spells that will probably affect them. The player does this anytime he or she uses lightning. Why shouldnt the enemy?

 

[Contagion and Otiluke's] really aren't competitive with other 4th-level choices.

 

Well, occasionally using Otiluke's or Contagion would be in the interest of variety--combined with other spells they could prove effective. Maybe not as effective as your current routines. But when those routines do work they would be fun to fight.

 

I'm pretty sure I already use those combinations [sleep and Horror, and Emotion and Chaos]; certainly I use all four singly.

 

When I cast these combos simultaneously right at the outset (especially having scouted their position first, and casting from outside their perception range) it dessimates enemy mobs. About half of the mob collapses in a dead faint, and the other half are panicked or dazed. I'm pretty sure I have not seen these spells used in combination at the outset of a battle. They are absolutely wicked.

 

The main place you'll see [enemies use wands] is the priest with the Wand of the Heavens in the Iron Throne tower, and in a couple of places where enemies have Wands of Paralysis.

 

Okay, good to know. Because wands of paralysis in particular should prove powerful.

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