SCS balance discussion

[Lemernis]

According to one strategy guide I found at gamefaqs (here), vanilla stone golems have 100% MR but no resistances to any weapon type. So you just hit them with weapons. They have 60 HP.

 

Can't recall if they haste.

[Wisp]

But even indoors, why not have the enemy mages live a little dangerously sometimes?

You mean like they did in vanilla BG1? I thought that sucked and it is one of the reasons I play with SCS.

 

Are Stone Golems the ones that self-buff with Haste?

Stone golems use Slow (Clay hastes).

 

According to one strategy guide I found at gamefaqs (here), vanilla stone golems have 100% MR but no resistances to any weapon type. So you just hit them with weapons. They have 60 HP.

The SCS ones are immune to normal weapons (normal Stone golems are immune to +1 and less).

[Lemernis]

But even indoors, why not have the enemy mages live a little dangerously sometimes?

You mean like they did in vanilla BG1? I thought that sucked and it is one of the reasons I play with SCS.

 

Well, they might be made to do it in much smarter ways than vanilla, is the point I'm trying to make. That would be the challenge for the scripter.

 

The spell choices by enemy mages in vanilla BG1 were really poor. For one thing, as far as I can recall they used no spell protections whatsoever. How could they be effective?

 

In contrast, for example, with SCS an enemy mage 'who lives more dangerously' might use

 

Stoneskin

Shield

Protection from Normal Weapons

Oil of Speed

Potion of Absorption

Ring of Invisibility (faster than a potion, maybe too phat a loot drop though); and uses it liberally

 

and go about using spells like Ghoul Touch, Contagion, Vampiric Touch, Color Spray, and a lightning wand.

 

Now granted, such a character will obviously be hardier if a Fighter-Mage. But a mage can do fine as such.

 

Anyway, I'd be curious to see how such an enemy mage performed. Especially if a comrade enemy mage remains in the backrow casting spells like Slow, Greater Malison, Glitterdust, Sleep/Horror, or at higher level Emotion/Chaos, an 'up close and personal' mage like that might be able to wreak some havoc.

 

I do recognize that while I'm able to use such characters very succesfully as a player, the AI might not be able to make them work. So take what I say with that grain of salt, please.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Now I do aknowledge that when I, as a player am controling such a character, I can coordinate his movement and make choices for him that the AI cannot. I recognize that the lack of a human being controling the character may make this type of character easy prey for the player. But as long as there are meleers engaging opponent tanks... and let us say that the enemy mage is buffed with PfNW and PfM... a mage should be able to walk around casting Ghoul Touch, Color Spray, Contagion, Vampiric, Lightning Bolt, and so forth. If the mage drinks an oil of speed then so much the better.

PfNW and what? PfMW? That's illegal according to the game/spell rules. Besides that, it just gives the mage 3 spells to cast before he need to recast the protection spells

 

Color Spray may take down some on your own side, sure, but it will also usually do the same for the opponent. Unless you have some means of having a greater chance to have the opponent to succumb to the spell, it's just a fun thing for the player to try to occasionally fight, if not the smartest tactic on the enemy's part... I guess there aren't any potions or spell buffs the enemy could use to protect its tanks from this spell...

One point in this is that DavidW can't make such a strategy for the enemy, why? Cause the enemy mage can't see what potions his friends have, or if he could, I doubt that would actually ever work/fire the spell cause the enemy characters are independent from each others, except few force ~commands and that's a whole unheaven to code up to... at least in general terms, of course it could be a encounter specific, but that's totally different thing.

 

The spell choices by enemy mages in vanilla BG1 were really poor. For one thing, as far as I can recall they used no spell protections whatsoever. How could they be effective?

Perhaps because you didn't let them, cause at against me,they used a lot of Mirror Images, Blur etc. small spells that were intended to protect the casters while they deliver disabling spells so the tanks could kill the party... The fight at the Cloakwood Mines is horrible if you give the mages the time(2 free turns) to act, as are the mages that live in the ice island...

[Guest Krazy]

I guess it's a bug in my game but many is the time I've been meleeing a mustard slime or whatever, Imoen attacking with a bow from a mile away and the slime will hit her with a ranged attack in preference. Same with skeletons, given the choice of hitting the person in front of them or the one at distance - they go for the mage. There's no other explanation for how Imoen is taking hits in the fight if the 'dumb' ones go for the nearest opponent. If it's a bug, so be it.

 

With regards to mages, I can't really answer it any better other than the fact that if you give mages certain buffs they can cast a devastating array of spells with impunity until the party has 4th level spells at their disposal. And mage of 7th level or higher is going to have things like minor globe, (improved) invis, haste, mirror image. Those alone make life a living nightmare unless you want to glug a zillion potions beforehand or otherwise cheese your way through the fight.

 

To my mind a low level party doesn't have the resources to deal with these fights at all. Being incredibly lucky to win a fight doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying. I certainly don't mind reloading a tough fight to come up with a strategy to win, but early on I was reloading because there was literally nothing to do but hope I scored a lucky hit or made a fluke save or something of that nature.

 

Same question as to Krazy: do you find them narrower than in the vanilla game, or just narrower than would be ideal?

 

They are not narrower than the vanilla game (they are most certainly a step in the right direction), but to my mind certainly narrower than would be ideal. Some of the mages you meet are positively insane - I don't see why they wouldn't chuck fireballs even if it hurts their grunts - I doubt they are there as anything but expendable meatshields in the first place.

I've seen plenty of them use the wand of fire - I don't see why casting fireball is any different.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I guess it's a bug in my game but many is the time I've been meleeing a mustard slime or whatever, Imoen attacking with a bow from a mile away and the slime will hit her with a ranged attack in preference. Same with skeletons, given the choice of hitting the person in front of them or the one at distance - they go for the mage. There's no other explanation for how Imoen is taking hits in the fight if the 'dumb' ones go for the nearest opponent. If it's a bug, so be it.

Well, have you tried different targeting, as some of the creatures attack their own attackers, which translates into a repel against the first attack that lands or is targeted, so the range attacker... so if you melee the slime, Imoen might not get to be the primary target.

 

As for the rest, is it a reality that you should be able to over power level 10 mage with level 1 party, no... so the game needs to reflect that.

[Icendoan]

Its very easy to overpower a level 10 fighter with level 1 critters, ordered well. Does this say that intelligent Mages are by far the best at everything, because as far as it goes in BG1, even at 10th level, a Cleric is much harder to kill, if used right. By having the spell protections and combat buffs to make a Kensai drool, while wearing the toughest armour in the game, looks like a much harder challenge over a sage who is crippled if you get Larloch's Minor Drain off at the right time.

 

Icen

[Jarno Mikkola]

Its very easy to overpower a level 10 fighter with level 1 critters, ordered well.

Yeah, if you can with 5 level 1 fighters against the 1 level 10 at the same time. Now try that one at a time and you most likely see the opposite.

But then again I can make a level 1 critter that can take a level 50 fighter, if I put the critter have 65000 hitpoints and other stuff.

[Icendoan]

That is not the point. My point is that Mages are overpowered.

 

Icen

[Guest Krazy]

As for the rest, is it a reality that you should be able to over power level 10 mage with level 1 party, no... so the game needs to reflect that.

 

I agree, but what you're forgetting the corollary which is that for game purposes a level 1 party shouldn't be encountering a level 10 mage.

[Jarno Mikkola]

That is not the point. My point is that Mages are overpowered.

Overpowered? You mean that with his spells they are superior, while without them, they are worse than a monkey with a wrench?

Yes, they are superior as enemies, but that's because they use all the methods the player can use, and they have an endless supple of treasures, spells, characters etc. but that's computer gaming today, almost.

 

I agree, but what you're forgetting the corollary which is that for game purposes a level 1 party shouldn't be encountering a level 10 mage.

Yeah, that's right, the player with level 1st party is able to just meat 29 level mage -> 30 level character on the third map he goes and survive the encounter, because the "Old Man" is not hostile... in BG1.

 

Now, the rule actually goes that: "The player isn't able to run into a hostile plot assumed encounter many levels superior that of his own."

[Icendoan]

I argue against that: Jon Irenicus.

 

Icen